Episode 125: Reflecting on an Impactful Career in Education with Howard Gardner
Howard Gardner is the Hobbs research professor of cognition and education at the Harvard Graduate School of Education. He is a leading thinker on education and human development and has studied and written extensively about intelligence, creativity, leadership, and professional ethics. A two-volume of Howard's work was published in 2024 by Teachers College Press, the Essential Howard Gardner On Education and the Essential Howard Gardner On Mind.
During our discussion, Howard discusses his work on synthesizing information from various fields to create practical applications for parents and educators. We dive into his past projects, including his books and Project Zero. We also reflect on the changes in K-12 and higher education and the role of AI in the future of education. It was an honor to talk to Howard, and I think you’ll really enjoy our conversation.
Topics Discussed:
The influence of Jerome Bruner
The impact and criticisms of the theory of multiple intelligences
What it means to be a good citizen
Resources mentioned:
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Read the transcript for this episode:
Welcome to Educator Forever, where we empower teachers to innovate education. Join us each week to hear stories of teachers expanding their impacts beyond the classroom and explore ways to reimagine teaching and learning.
Howard Gardner is the Hobbs research professor of cognition and education at the Harvard Graduate School of Education. He is a leading thinker on Education and Human Development, and has studied and written extensively about intelligence, creativity, leadership and professional ethics. A two volume of Howard's work was published in 2024 by teachers college press, the essential. Howard Gardner on Education and the essential. Howard Gardner on Mind, welcome, Howard. It's such a delight to have you here.
Howard Gardner
Thank you. My pleasure.
Lily Jones
So I would love for you to look back at your career. I know you've accomplished so much and research so many interesting things. I would love to hear what stands out to you,
Howard Gardner
Sure. Well, I'm in my ninth decade. Been around for a while when I grew up in Scranton, Pennsylvania. I'm actually from the same town as Joe Biden and about the same age, though we didn't know each other, and when I was young, I was studious, and I always assumed I would be a teacher. I thought I would teach every grade, from K to 12, but that's in part because I didn't even know about college and universities. For me, school was elementary school and high school, but then I went to college and kind of got bitten by the scholarship bug and got a doctorate in psychology. And for a while, I was shuttling between neurology, studying the brain and brain damage, on the one hand, and psychology, doing developmental psychology. And I always maintained my interest in education. I'd worked with Jerome Bruner, who was a very well known psychologist interested in education, and his ideas had a lot of impact on me, but the thing that made me well known, to be honest, was a five year project in which I tried to understand the different kinds of minds that human beings can have. I actually outlined a book called kinds of minds, and I had a research staff when we were able to comb through all kinds of literatures, from genetics and neurology to anthropology and sociology, we were able to travel around. And then sometime over 40 years ago, I made the decision to call these not different faculties or different kinds of minds, but different intelligences. And without realizing it really, I was picking a fight with a very powerful establishment, namely the psychometric establishment, which believes intelligence is a single thing and that people can be called as smart or average or dumb, and we can tell what your intelligence is by giving you an IQ test. And certainly, IQ tests have their history, and at certain times, they've been valuable in certain ways, but all of my research indicated to me that human beings are better thought of as having a brain with several different computers. One computes language, another computes logic and math. Another computes music, another computes spatial ability, another computes ability to navigate with your body. Another includes understanding other people. Another includes understanding yourself. And the fateful decision I made was to call these multiple intelligences, and I became well known. Dan Goldman's work in emotional intelligence was certainly equally well known and probably pithier than my theory of multiple intelligences. And if I wanted to be a bit smug and a bit nasty, I would say that the rest of the world accepts the idea of multiple intelligences. It's written about all the time, emotional intelligence, social intelligence, artistic intelligence, but the psychometric establishment, the people who create tests, are very stubborn, and they want to still believe in a single IQ. And their criticism of me, one of many criticisms, is that there's no test for the different intelligences. And of course, one could assess the different intelligences, and several people have tried to do that. But the way I think about this is my work is not a work about psychological testing. It's a work of synthesis. Synthesis is the capacity to take many different kinds of information, as I said, from science, from social science, from natural science, from educational experiments, not just the United States, but all over the world. And put them together in a way that's useful for people, and I'm particularly interested in making them useful for parents and educators, because the other ones who deal with are young folks and. So when critics of my say, well, where's the test and where's the test results, I say you're missing the point. The point is that I've tried to put together all kinds of information, and if you could put it together in a more convincing way, then I would be persuaded. And just to tell us something that probably none of your listeners know, several months ago, at the end of 2024 my colleagues, shinri florizawa and Annie steak, sure, and I wrote a long essay about 10,000 words called who owns intelligence. And it was making a little joke about the fact that in 1999 I wrote an article for what was then called the Atlanta the Atlantic Monthly. It's now called the Atlantic. And in there I said, Look, for 100 years, people that believe intelligence is one thing, but now we think there are several kinds of intelligence. And I talked about Dan Goldman's works and others. But in this essay, shinri wrote about animal intelligences, and he wrote about plant intelligences, and I wrote about artificial intelligences. Because now anybody who's still stuck in the IQ test, when we know that there are 100 kinds of large language instruments that can get an IQ of 500 in any of them, it seems particularly ludicrous, but it's probably what I'm saying. Maybe well be true about other disciplines as well. Certain people get hooked or affected on a certain way of thinking about things, what Thomas Kuhn would have called a scientific paradigm, and they're insensitive to when the paradigm no longer works.
Lily Jones
Yeah, so fascinating. And I want to read that article that sounds very interesting, particularly the different types of plant intelligence. It reminded me of I wrote for our curriculum program. I wrote a unit all about plant intelligence and kind of community gardens for kids, but hitting on that too. So I'm very intrigued by that, but I appreciate .... oh, you go ahead,
Howard Gardner
Any reader can get it. You just write Howard Gardner, who owns intelligence, and you'll get the 10,000 words.
Lily Jones
That's great. And I love hearing the response to the critics too, right? Like it's not just about what we can measure, and it's not obviously about tests. And I think as an educator, as a parent, as a human, test results are not the most interesting or important thing to me, and so I appreciate responding to that as well.
Howard Gardner
So speaking about about different kinds of clinical pathologies, sorry, so I'm not making any statements about, you know, nervous conditions or psychiatric conditions or biological conditions. I'm talking about how we how we perceive and understand the world and how we act in it. That's what my my ideas are about.
Lily Jones
Yes, I appreciate that. And so I know that you recently published the essential Howard Gardner on education and the essential Howard Gardner on mind. Can you tell us about those and what motivated you to do so.
Howard Gardner
Sure. As I've already indicated, I'm not young anymore. I've written 31 books and over 1000 articles, probably 500 blogs, if you go to howardgardner.com there are tons and tons of blogs, and except for my late mother, nobody is ever going to want to want to read all that stuff.
Lily Jones
I really get them out honestly.
Howard Gardner
Well, thank you. So anyway, I was given the opportunity by teachers college press at Columbia University to put out to put out these two volumes, one on my work in education, the other in my work in mind about psychology and usually my wife, Ellen Winner, who's a well known psychologist and educator, usually reads my stuff, but because this was just apparently a collection of my writings, she didn't. But then, when the books came out in 2024 she looked at them and she said, you know, Howard, this isn't just a collection of your articles. This is an intellectual autobiography. Because, as you know, Lily in front of each article, I talk about what was the question I was asking, what was the work that I did? How did it relate to what I did before? When did I change course and why? So if you want to know about my life, course in education, starting with my own education, then with the work I did in China in the 1980s and in Reggio Emilia in Italy for four decades, and about the various experiments that I've carried out my colleagues have carried out, largely in this country, and some of our ideas about the disciplines, about testing and assessment, about Leadership. You can also read about that in the essential Howard Gardner in education. The essential Howard Gardner on mind is more of an intellectual biography from my youth tilt right now, because I've always been kind of a wanderer, a wanderer and wonderer. So I started. Doing experiments with kids, particularly in the arts. I was very interested in artistic abilities and knowledge, because American psychology was not interested in the arts. Everything was sort of scientific problem solving mathematics, which, of course, is fine, but I have a lot of interest in the arts. And I worked at a place called Project Zero, which was focused on the arts. So it begins with mice, my psychological experiments upon in the arts and with young children. Then it goes on to my work in brain damage. The most important discovery that I made when I was working with Ellen Winner in the 1970s is that the left hemisphere of the brain in most people helps us deal with ordinary language, with syntax and phonology, but the right hemorrhs The brain allows us to deal with metaphor and humor. And even though that work has been carried on way further than we did in the 1970s it was a real scientific finding, because people said, well, languages in the left hemisphere. So everything to do, whether it's literal, metaphoric, poetic, it's on the left. No, it's more complicated than that then. And I, of course, talk about my work in education, my work on intelligences, but then I go on in Howard Gardner In Mind to talk about creativity, because when I began to talk about intelligence, people said, Well, what about creativity? And that led studies of people who had different profiles of intelligence and were creative in different kinds of ways. Then, for a number of reasons, I became interested in leadership. What are the properties that leaders have that makes them effective? And a distinction between creators and leaders is that creators do most of their stuff by themselves, and then they put it out for the rest of the world to judge as it's any good. Leaders are mostly out there. You know, they're in the public eye, they're on the on the stage, they're on television or whatever, but if they don't have time to reflect somewhat, and they become very stale. And so there are articles about creativity, there are articles about leadership, and then there are two final parts of the book, one of them is about the work that my colleagues and I have been engrossed in for 30 years, and that is, what does it mean to be a good worker and a good citizen? Because any intelligence can be used benignly or cruelly, both Goebbels Hitler's propagandists and Goethe, the German poets, were very gifted in the German language, but they didn't use it from the same way. Similarly, Nelson Mandela, the leader in South Africa, Slobodan Milosevic, the leader in the former Yugoslavia, both knew how to motivate people to do things, but obviously they were used in very different ways. We're talking the beginning of 2025 there's a guy in the white house. Now, I can't remember his name or not, but people are very divided in what kind of a leader he is and whether they believe the story that he not only tells but tries to embody, but I think we'll have to talk about that in another segment of your program. So another part of the book talks about what it means to be a good worker, a good leader, a good citizen. And it involves the intertwining of three attributions, excellence, engagement and ethics. So let's take teaching, because that's what most of your audience are. If you want to be a good teacher, you need to know your stuff. That means to be excellent. You need to be engaged, to care. And of course, that's quite challenging nowadays, not just in this country and anywhere, but you won't get my star for being a good teacher unless you're also ethical. And what do you do if you're a class of 30 kids, and their two kids are really a big problem, and there's no way that you can instantly solve it. That's an ethical issue. You can't look up the right answer. You have to try things out, talk to other colleagues, be honest with yourself. As we always say, with regards to ethical dilemmas, you have to say, declare what the dilemma is, discuss it, debate it, decide it. And then you have to debrief, because you might not have made the best decision. So there's a lot of work on in the book about what it means to be a good worker and a good citizen. And finally, in both the education volume and in the volume on the mind, I have a section which I call where they're world enough and time. That's a quotation from Andrews marvel that the British. Poet, the English poet. And what I'm saying in the last section of the book is, I'm old. I don't know how much time I have left. I'm working on it, but if I had more time, what do I think should be looked at? And in the education book, I also address people who want to do research students, and say, How do I think you should go about research in the 21st century. So there's more. Each book is quite full, but that's more of a summary than I've usually given. I hope that it gives some sense of what I spent several years putting together, and, of course, what I spent my lifetime thinking, researching and writing about
Lily Jones
That's fantastic. And as a reader and an educator, I think it's all so nice having it in one or two spots, you know, as a compilation. And I love that reflection of an intellectual autobiography, like, how great is that to be able to look back and be able to put together the pieces and have people have a little bit of an inside peek as well.
Howard Gardner
Thank you.
Lily Jones
So I know you mentioned project zero, and I'm a huge Project Zero fan from the time I was a classroom teacher many years ago, using teaching for understanding and thinking routines to now working in curriculum. I would love for you to tell us a little bit about Project Zero and the work you've done there.
Howard Gardner
Okay, well, I'm probably the worst expert on this, because I joined it in 1967 so we're shortly to have our 60th anniversary with Dave Perkins, who was also there, and whom you may know. We ran Project Zero for close to 30 years, and we began the summer institutes and having courses online. Since then, we've had several leadership transitions, and Project Zero is quite healthy now. We have about 25 different research projects going on at any time. We have a very active website. We have a new web developer who really Kristen Livingston, who's really on her toes and keeps feeding all of us new things. And this is, this is a first for you, Lily, my wife, Ellen Winner I mentioned, who was Johnny come lately to Project Zero. She only joined in 1973 so just 52 years ago, she is doing a study of the impact of Project Zero.
Lily Jones
Oh great.
Howard Gardner
And she's interviewed over 200 people. She has a manuscript now, which is over 500 single spaced pages, and I think within this calendar year, within 25 that that impact study, as she calls it, will be posted. I don't think any publisher would want to publish such a long manuscript about everything that Project Zero has done. But she keeps saying to me, we should write something together about Project Zero, and maybe we will what I will say. And for any of you who are in higher education, I challenge you, is there any institution that you know that has been an institution of higher education for almost 60 years, which is still thriving, which has gone through several leadership changes, and importantly, does not have a sense of endowment. Almost everything that survives at university or in a museum or some kind of a culture institution has an endowment. It could be 10 million it could be 10 billion and that ensures that the salaries of the workers will be paid and that the lights go on at night, and the bathroom works and so on. But at Project Zero, we all basically have to raise our own salaries, and we do that by being on our toes, by coming up with ideas that we hope other people will support. Indeed, Ellen and I have just come up with a new idea, which we call AI in the age in the age of ai, ai in the age of AI, and that means artistic intelligence is in the era of artificial intelligence. Yes, and we're not the world's experts on artificial intelligence. We may not be the world's experts on artificial intelligence, but I think we're better equipped to put that stuff together than anybody else. Now, if Ellen and I were half our age, we would be walking around with a tea cup trying to raise funds for that. And now, again, a sadder thing, which I think most listeners will know about, is the current administration is cutting overhead enormously, to such an extent that most projects will not be able to be carried out by federal funds. And we don't know what the implications of that would be for funds which are philanthropic, but you know, we read in the paper about stuff that we think has no relationship to us, but if, for example, collecting data about how students are learning is stopped, or experiments where we're treating one group with one kind of treatment, another treatment with a placebo and that stopped. You know, mental health and physical health will be undermined. And no other country that I know of that has science is doing this, but there's a real attack on science and medicine now in the United States. And, you know, it's nice to be an ostrich about these things, but it's wrong. We have to try to think about how to meet, how to meet these challenges.
Lily Jones
No, it's horrifying. I mean, the scale and impact of all the cuts is hard to even fathom, and I appreciate going back to Project Zero. You know, the longevity, I think, really, is a testament to all the amazing and helpful resources that you all have created. And I love this idea of AI and the age of AI. I mean, I want to, I want to hear more about that. That sounds fantastic.
Howard Gardner
Well, if we get support, we're going to start by just talking to people and trying different instruments out. Then we will work with major arts institutions, where they have to, of course, adjust art schools and music schools and dance academies. But then we will work on curriculum and assessment in K to 12, because even if we have machines that do very brilliant things, that's no substitute for human beings doing them. I mean, chess can beat people at chess, but that doesn't mean don't play chess. And I play the piano every day, even though I'm sure many machines could do it much better. But we can't ignore what the amazing things that these machines can do, whether it's in medicine, law, education, you name it. So if you if you want to do work in this area, now you can't ignore AI. And in both of the collections, I have some final essays about how I'm thinking about these issues in an AI era. ,
Lily Jones
Yeah it reminds me of what you were saying with ethics, with the engagement and excellent and ethics, you know, of grappling, and that sometimes for learning, we have to have times of grappling, right? Like we have to be able to try something out and see how it goes, and get feedback. And AI isn't really that helpful there, right? AI is helpful for helping us get information and cutting down the process in some ways, but I think that grappling is not replicable in that way.
Howard Gardner
Well, I don't know any more about this than you, but I mean, one can adjust the AI program to give you some stuff, and if you succeed there, give you something more challenging, if not go about it another way, what it can't do is hug. You realize when you need to take a break, though, even even then you know good AI programs establish something about your own habits. And you know, for a kid who's a prodigy, it can keep feeding them higher challenges. For a kid who is very challenged with something, it would slow down. And, I mean, it's no different than medicine. I mean, there are all kinds of diagnosis which these instruments will be able to do very well, but we don't have the again, the hug, or the saying, you know, this is the time to slow down, or maybe in this case, you need to talk to somebody rather than have another test. But it's going to be your generation and the generations that follow you that will have to work on this every day. I have four kids, five grandchildren, and I think a lot about how the world would be different, both from the world that my parents grew up in and from the world that I grew up in. .
Lily Jones
Absolutely. Yeah, I have two school aged children myself, and they have a different reality, for sure. And so going out on that and I it can be with AI or really anything that comes up for you. How do you feel about the general state of K 12 education and or higher education?
Howard Gardner
Well, I've done a lot of work in higher education recently. Wendy Fishman and I wrote a major book called The Real World, world of college, which came out in 2022 and we're now continuing that work entirely. I think higher education in this United States, in the United States, is a very, very tough position, and that's even before the current administration. So what Wendy and I did with Bill Kirby, it was a distinguished Chinese historian. We put out an issue of Daedalus last year. That's a academic journal on innovations in higher education around the world, and we had like, six essays from China, two essays from Hungary, essays from Latin America and so on. I think in higher education, there's a lot to be learned from other countries. For example, in England, there's a school called London interdisciplinary school. It's called a school, but it's a it's like a four year college, and there you don't go to major in a subject. You go to work on a problem, problem like nuclear disarmament or climate change or inter cultural understanding. If. Yeah. And I think it's a very exciting idea that instead of saying, Well, I'm going to major in this and minor in this, you throw yourself into a problem. So I think in higher ed, we have to stop looking in the mirror and start looking at other models, including, of course, ones that make use of AI very, very extensively. In K 12 education, I guess I have two answers to that. Number one is we cannot deal in this country when half the teachers who joined the teaching course forced leave within five years. And I've often said a lot of problems in the United States would be solved if we multiply teachers salaries by three. And that doesn't make them very rich. It makes them like other professionals, doctors, lawyers, people who work in finance and so on. So, you know, teachers are inadequately compensated, so it's very tough to make a go of it, and that's where the E of engagement becomes very important. Teachers are most likely to stay in teaching despite the many pressures that we know about if they feel supported, which means by peers, by principles, both kinds of principles, P, A, L and P L, E, but also often by religious space. I'm not religious myself, but if you, if you need to have something to believe in, and that your your calling is to be an educator, and that gives you, that gives you strength and endurance and energy, that's another way to remain the other thing, and this is important for anybody who's listening, who wants to go on and do research in education, is the new computer capabilities are going to redo education entirely. It won't be recognizable in 10 years, let alone 50 years. So the one idea I've been developing, and I don't have a good name for it, so maybe you, one of your listeners, could give it to me. The name I'm using is meta. But of course, meta is now Facebook, and I'm not interested in selling Facebook, but I think we need to spend more time Lily and what I call meta knowledge, which is not knowing something per se, but kind of knowing why it's important and how other people know about it. So when I grew up in Pennsylvania, you heard 70 years ago, um, I had to draw a map of all 70 counties in Pennsylvania by memory, and I wasn't very good at that. I didn't have that kind of intelligence. Now, if I want to go anywhere, I just look at my machine. So I don't think we need to have I don't think we need to spend time having people memorize where every country is, but knowing what a map is and how it's made and where it can go wrong, that's what I call meta knowledge. And I think in many of the of the subjects where we took things for granted, like, you know, learning the Pythagorean theorem or quadratic equations, we should spend less time perfecting those things and more time understanding why it's important, how it's done and if it's being done wrong, what the costs are. So I call that meta knowledge. It's unreasonable to expect teachers who are in the classroom every day to be able to develop an entirely new curriculum. But this is the kind of thing that people at Project Zero will be working on. We have a new center there, you may know, called the Center for Digital thriving, run by Terry James and Emily Weinstein, both of whom were students of mine, and we're really trying to understand what it means to thrive in the digital era, and education is going to be very different. But as I said at the beginning of the program, when I grew up, as I thought I was going to do and other people can say whether I did it well or not, but clearly, that's really what I've been doing for decades.
Lily Jones
Yeah, it's so fascinating. I mean, some part of me it feels overwhelming thinking about all the rapid changes, but I think grounding it in the why you know, of what's important for people to understand. And going back to the engagement, you know, I have a seventh grader who was just doing math homework last night, and she took out her phone and was do using the calculator, and, you know, doing that for the calculations. But then had some conceptual like, check of understanding, you know, of like, Does this make sense for the project concept? And so I think kind of re conceptualizing how we can use AI, how we can use all these new technologies as a tool, while keeping the really important work for humans.
Howard Gardner
Well, Project Europe was started by Nelson Goodman, who is an eminent philosopher, and he said, there's lots of lore about the arts, but there isn't any systematic knowledge, so we're going to start at zero and see what we can accumulate. But Nelson Goodman used to make a funny thing. That's why I thought of him, which he said, he said there's common sense, and common nonsense, and one of our jobs as parents and teachers and as citizens is to help people discriminate between, let's say, the the orders that are coming out of Washington in the beginning of 2025 which make common sense and which are just total nonsense. But we need to have to use a technical term, bullshit detectors to know when people are just giving us nonsense. And that doesn't come with birthright. That comes with lots of discussion support being able to argue in ways which don't make people feel stupid, but make them feel better informed. And those I think are going to continue to require other human beings. I mean, you can argue with chatgpt and it sounds good, but somehow, it's not the same thing as a parent or a grandparent or a neighbor or somebody with whom you're debating in a high school class.
Lily Jones
Absolutely. So I'd love to end this amazing conversation by talking about people who've influenced or inspired the way you think about education, who comes to mind?
Howard Gardner
Sure, I think the biggest influence was really the man I mentioned earlier, Jerome Bruner. Jerome Bruner was born in 1915 he was trained as a psychologist, but in middle age, he became very interested in education. And just after I finished college, I met him. I'd never met him before, and he was doing something so interesting that I changed my summer plans. I changed what I was going to do for the rest of my life. And I also met the woman that I married. Bromer was developing a curriculum, and the name of the curriculum is dated, but the idea is not. It's called Man Of course of study. It was the source of studies curriculum for fourth, fifth and sixth graders, and it raised three questions, which I ask every day, what makes human beings human? How did we get that way? How can we be made more so? And even though I didn't turn the next day to try to answer those questions, that's really what I'm looking at now. It's what we call the end of the Anthropocene. The Anthropocene is the era of hundreds of million years where the humans have just taken over the planet. That's over, not only because of artificial intelligence, but because of climate change and because of nuclear weapons, and so I think that answering those questions in a 21st century way, what makes human beings human? How do we get that way? How can we make more so that was probably the biggest influence in my thinking about education, when I think about higher education, I think about the people who made higher education important in the United States in the 20th century, and those were leaders of major campuses who basically opened them up so you didn't just have wealthy Protestant males going but opened them up and where they weren't just studying for the clergy or to work on Wall Street, but to be trained in various different kinds of professions. And I was lucky enough to go to college and university and to join the Academy in its golden age, which was the second half of the 20th century. But that's over, and it won't be it won't be repaired quickly. So now I think about more about people who I think have the insight to to fix the planet. And when people ask me, what should students read, I say they should read Gandhi's autobiography, which is called experiments with truth, because Gandhi saw what was going on in the world very deeply. He was very religious himself, but he wasn't trying to impose his religion and others, but he realized that we didn't know how to disagree civilly. We would destroy ourselves, and this is before nuclear weapons. He was assassinated, as was Martin Luther King, as were many other people who you know, believed that we have to do things non violently. And when I live in a country where every day, more weapons are bought, it's very, very hard to think that the Gandhi lesson has been learned. But those of us who have a strand of idealism, and I'm one of them say we need to learn from people like Gandhi, who was so frank about everything he didn't do well. And if you ask me about my religion, I would say it's humanism. Humanism is a belief, as I said, and what makes human beings human, and how can we be made more so you can be a religious person. And as long as you aren't using religious religion in a divisive way. But I think it's the ties that we have to other human beings, and the fact that, you know, we're separating children from their parents now because of the whims of some of our leaders, is it's inhumane.
Lily Jones
Yes, absolutely. I mean, beautifully said. And thank you so much for sharing your reflections. It's been such a pleasure having this conversation. Can you tell people where they can learn more about your work?
Howard Gardner
Sure? If you go to howardgardner.com as I said, I'm an inveterate blogger. There are 500 blogs there. I'm blogging all the time about multiple intelligences, about a synthesizing mind, about the good project, about anything, anything that that occurs to me. But if you don't want to go to my website, the books are certainly available at Amazon or other places that give books the essentials, was put out by teachers college press, and you might be able to get a free copy if you're a teacher, or you might be able to get discounted copy if you say the right thing. I can't help you there, but as I said, it will save you combing through over 30 books and over 1000 articles in the few 100 pages, you can get what I hope is the most lasting of my ideas.
Lily Jones
Wonderful. Well, thank you again. Howard.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai