Episode 131: Addressing Inequities in School Discipline with Richard Welsh of The School Discipline Lab
This week I’m joined by Richard Welsh, an associate professor at Vanderbilt University and the founder of its School Discipline Lab. We talked about his new book, Suspended Futures: Transforming Racial Inequities in School Discipline. The book focuses on the prevalence of exclusionary discipline in schools, particularly among Black students, who are twice as likely to be suspended. The book is eye-opening and hopeful, as its full of strategies for making classroom discipline more equitable.
In our discussion, Richard breaks down what the research on school discipline disparities says and why he started researching the subject in the first place. He also explains why educators need to be involved in fixing these issues. It’s an important episode and hopefully by discussing the issue, we will start seeing some positive change.
Topics Discussed:
The importance of a love for learning
The impact of the COVID pandemic on discipline disparities
What it’s like to write a book
Resources mentioned:
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Read the transcript for this episode:
Welcome to Educator Forever, where we empower teachers to innovate education. Join us each week to hear stories of teachers expanding their impacts beyond the classroom and explore ways to reimagine teaching and learning.
Dr. Richard Welsh is an associate professor of education and public policy in the department of leadership policy and organizations at Peabody College of Vanderbilt University. Dr Welsh's research focuses on understanding and transforming inequality in K 12 education, and he is the founding director of the school discipline lab. Dr Walsh's book, suspended futures transforming racial inequities in school discipline is an examination of the school discipline crisis and a strategic evidence driven playbook for educational decision makers who aim to resolve disciplinary disparities. Welcome, Richard. So nice to have you here. Thanks for having me. Lily. So I always ask the same question at the beginning, and you can take it in whatever direction you want, but can you tell us about your journey as an educator?
Richard Welsh
So my journey as a educator started with my parents. So my mom is a was a teacher. She's now a principal. My dad, although he didn't go to college. He was a big proponent of the power of education. So, you know, I grew up around staff rooms and educators, and my parents instilled a love of learning in me, so that's the starting point. So, you know, by teaching, we learn. So my teaching philosophies, the gender Decimus. And every time I teach, I try and challenge myself to learn as much as I teach, or try to learn as much as I teach. So yeah, the my progression as a researcher, I think, comes from seeing you know, generating new knowledge, synthesizing the literature as one of the highest forms of learning, I think, one of the most rewarding beneficial, not only for the individual, but for society. So started with my parents, and it just kind of took off from there.
Lily Jones
I love that, and what better than to have the love of learning instilled in you? I mean, as a parent myself, I'm like, that's what I'm going for, right?
Richard Welsh
I think it not only has been beneficial for my career, but beneficial for my life as well. And kind of how I go about parenting as well as I, you know, try and guide my little ones in the world.
Lily Jones
And I also appreciate what you said about learning as much as you can every time you teach. I mean to me, that's one of the greatest joys of teaching, is being able to dive into the material myself and think about, what do I need to learn, or what can I learn from the students I'm teaching, no matter what age they are.
Richard Welsh
Yeah, and, you know, I've been fortunate to teach a wide range of students in, you know, my career that's far from undergraduates to graduate students, so they bring a wealth of experiences, a wealth of perspectives that I can be able to learn as well. And you know, there's always so many things that I want to read that you won't kind of get the time to read in in just research. So when I do teach, I try and put things that I want to learn about, new readings that might be a little bit out of my area expertise, but can still get me to keep learning. So I think it kind of keeps it energizing and keeps it exciting.
Lily Jones
Yes, absolutely. And so I'd love to hear what led you to focus on disparities in school discipline.
Richard Welsh
Yeah, you know, it really started with the needs of districts. So when, back when I was a professor in the at the University of Georgia, this was in two, around 2015 16, had the opportunity to meet with the superintendent of Clark County School District. So that's in Athens, Georgia, and at that point in time, I walked into the meeting, and my main research interest was student mobility, or students switching schools. You know, I had stumbled on school discipline by looking at students switching to and from alternative schools. But it wasn't my main error. So, you know, after I went into this meeting, and I presented a couple different ways we can go to research and how I can be off surface to the district. The district leadership was super clear that school discipline was the most pressing and urgent need. So when I walked out to that meeting, my research interests became understanding and transforming racial inequities in school discipline. So most of my work, you know, I try and situate it within research practice partnerships. So I really want to work directly with district and school leaders to produce and use research evidence. So between working in District partnerships, research practice partnerships, trying to figure out what districts need the most, and kind of hearing what they want, it kind of led me to focus on discipline disparities.
Lily Jones
So needed. And I'm so interested to hear a little bit more, I'm kind of laughing at myself for writing this next question, which is to give us an overview on the research on school discipline disparities. So I know you could probably go. On forever and very wide, but I would still love to hear a little breakdown of what you think we should know about the research on school discipline disparities?
Richard Welsh
Good question. So the first thing I do is probably break it into two broad buckets. We have one bucket that focuses on the contributors to discipline disparities, and then we have another bucket that's not as large as the first one, but it's kind of growing in terms of the numbers studies in the literature that focus on the effectiveness of school discipline reforms. So if we consider the first bucket, you know, we have tons of studies that essentially tell us about the prevalence, often disparities in discipline, disciplinary outcomes. So I think starting back to maybe in the 1970s with the landmark Children's Defense Fund report, we have well documented prevalence of exclusionary discipline, disparities in exclusionary discipline. So you know, essentially black students have been are around twice as likely to be suspended students of color, I would say, particular black, particularly black students, male students, students with disabilities, also experience exclusionary discipline at higher rates than their peers. Now, a subset of studies within that bucket have delved deeper into why certain students have higher rates of discipline than others. And you know, we have evidence that is not because black students are misbehaving more, right? So I really would refer folks to the most recent studies on differential processing. So that's using trying to figure out whether or not students are getting harsher punishment for similar infractions, which would mean we'd we'd have to be using infraction level data, student level data, and that really tells us and confirms that, you know, it is not the case that black students are misbehaving more. We have a second set of studies that, you know, if one bucket diagnoses the problem, the next bucket is kind of telling us what's happening with the solution. So we have a growing number of studies on, you know, policies, programs and personal changes that are intended to reduce the prevalence often disparities in school discipline. So you know, everything from your changes in policy to, you know, prohibit suspensions in certain grades or to reduce the number of days that students can be suspended. You have popular programs, restorative practices, Positive Behavioral Interventions and Supports. And then you have your personal changes you can, you know, increase social workers, school counselors, school psychologists. So we have a growing body of research on that. You know, my read of it is that we have tons of interventions that have led to reducing the overall use of exclusionary disciplines. So the prevalence, but not so much that have reduced the disparities, and that would be the differences in students disciplinary outcomes. So they are some, and that's kind of, you know, some of what I delve into and tease out in the book, the difference between prevalence and disparities. And try and be a little bit more, you know, specific and strategic on which interventions and school discipline reforms will reduce the prevalence and which would reduce disparities, and why?
Lily Jones
Mm, hmm. And so which ones would reduce disparities? What would you recommend?
Richard Welsh
Well, it's not one thing. So that's the first place I'd start. You know, one of the main arguments I make in the book is, is for strategic framework. So, you know, schools and districts are really doing one thing, but we have to be really coordinated in what we're doing. You know, I break it up into three tiers. So, you know, at the first tier, tier one, what we want in all schools. I think we have evidence for restorative practices, PBIS, and on the students side, social, emotional learning. So the way I think about what we can do is what we do to focus on the teachers and what we do to focus on the students, and in both cases, we're trying to support both of them. You know, when we move to tier two, which is the schools are considered to be, you know, have a higher prevalence in exclusionary discipline, but not so much disparities. There are fewer reforms that we can do. We have empathetic mindsets. We have coaching. And these are, you know, not just reducing the prevalence, but going more to some of the specific mechanisms. I think so, whether it be teacher student relationships, whether it be the cultural responsiveness of teachers, and then tier three schools are, you know, I would say about 10% of schools in every district, 10 to 15% of schools where these are schools with the highest prevalence, the highest disparities. So I kind of say, you know, we throw the. Kitchen sinker support at those schools. So it would be everything I said before, you know, additional personnel and needs be more intensive coaching interventions, as opposed to the other schools. So, you know, I think that the big distinction, I think, is having a level of intentionality and paying attention not only to how we support students, but also how we support educators. And I think the interventions that hit those markers are the ones that move past just reducing the use, but reducing the use for the the students who are most affected by exclusionary discipline, and that would be our students of color.
Lily Jones
Thank you for breaking that down. That's very helpful and also interesting, and makes sense that it's a variety of many different strategies that also there's a variety of many different schools out there, right, and what the needs are. So I appreciate that.
Richard Welsh
Yeah, yeah. I think oftentimes it took me a while to kind of appreciate that variation, and I think it's one that we don't speak about as as much in school discipline, but I think it partly informs our approach to how we reduce disparities. So there's variation across suspension types, variation across regions when we're working with districts, variation across schools, and if we even bring it to a more granular level, variations within school, across classrooms. And I think when we start to appreciate that, we can target our report or support to the areas in greatest need.
Lily Jones
Mm, hmm, absolutely. So I pulled this question from your website to because I thought it was so interesting. It's Is it the students or the adults behavior in schools that is driving discipline disparities?
Richard Welsh
You know, I think the answer to that has kind of shifted with the pandemic. So, you know, prior to the pandemic, I would definitely say the skills were tilted more towards educator behavior is an argument that I make in the book that you know, it's not, you know, we focus so much on students, we forget that they're not the adults in schools, right? So we had to shift a little bit more to the adults and how we support or educate us. But I would say after the pandemic, it has kind of shifted a bit. So when you speak with you know, the educators, from assistant principals, principals teachers, there is a clear shift in, you know, kind of the socialization and skills for students that have result in an in an uptick in in student misbehavior. So even though I'd be kind of one of the first ones to highlight that they are racialized differences in how student behavior is perceived and addressed. I think, after the pandemic, you know, we have real challenges in terms of conflict resolution. In terms of students, you know, kind of relearning how to do schools, in terms of students learning how to interact with their peers and interact with educators without profanity, and some of the skills that we hope that they'll get from social emotional learning. So I'd say at this point, it's a little bit of both, right, where pandemic has kind of worsened student behavior with what what's happening, but I still think that historically and even today, how educators are perceiving and responding to that student behavior, and some of the differences we see by who the students are or who the students are is, you know, operative.
Lily Jones
Mm, hmm, yeah, I appreciate that framing, and it is like a whole new world out there. I haven't taught in many years as a, you know, I used to be a classroom teacher for kindergarten and first grade, but now I work with teachers, yeah, 10 kids, and I work with teachers. And I hear it all the time from teachers, just like, whoa, like the classroom is not what it used to be. And, you know, I see it with my own kids too, who my son missed the last year of preschool and part of kindergarten because of the pandemic, or my daughter missed third grade. You know, there are gaps in whole generations of kids that were coming across.
Richard Welsh
Yeah, you know, I hope researchers take that up. I have somewhere coming down the pipe that looks at that, but I think they are COVID cohorts, right? Exactly as you say. And anecdotally, some of my conversations with you know, assistant principals and principals and superintendents confirm that where they'd be picking up certain trends in certain grades, whether it be a grade seven in a particular year or grade five in one year, and they would make the connection that these are the kids that were home for two years or came back or, you know. So I think the pandemic has definitely left an indelible impact on schooling, on our lives, and I think we're just beginning to understand the ways in which that's playing out in school discipline.
Lily Jones
Mm. Yeah, absolutely. And so thinking just a little bit about discipline in classrooms, you know, I think there are some things for teachers that maybe their school is making decisions about a whole school wide approach or district wide approach. But I'm curious how you think educators should approach discipline in their classrooms.
Richard Welsh
Yeah, I think I want them to lead with empathy and skill building, you know, in you know, my mom is a was a teacher, and, you know, I'm very careful in the book to not, you know, blame teachers, because I think there are lots of structural issues in the way they're prepared, in the way they're supported in districts and schools that, you know, we kind of have to consider, but with all of that said, you know, even though teachers can't be responsible for everything and sometimes I think we put too much on our schools, you know, they can still teach. I think they can still, you know, teach students social and emotional learning skills. That's going to be beneficial. I think that can still work on their classroom management and their instructional engagement. I think they can avoid trying to adultify or criminalize certain students in how they view and respond to behaviors. So, you know, I think there's is when we look at some of the research, you know, as a teacher garners more experience, right? Or more experienced teachers have less referrals to the office, less suspension. So I think, you know, we have to better support teachers and educators, but we want the mantra for educators to be support, not suspend, and kind of, you know, to really they do because, I mean, as you know, you don't really find yourself into classrooms unless you you really want to teach and make an impact. But I would just remind them to remember that core of skills building that you know, the children that are in front of them, the students, they are still children, and they're still developing, and to kind of lead with that in mind.
Lily Jones
Support over suspension Absolutely. I mean, I always say, like my whole classroom management was just built on love, like it was like loving the students, seeing them for who they were, and building those relationships can get you a long way. And I know when I was coaching new teachers for a while and going into classrooms, it seems like sometimes teachers who are very much like strong on the heavy handed discipline, it's like out of control, and it is like very nuanced how to run a classroom based on empathy and love. And I think especially for beginning teachers, sometimes they can hold on to almost like, in my view, very harsh systems of discipline, because there's some sense of control there.
Richard Welsh
Yes, fully agree. You know, when we or or novice teachers, teachers within their first three to five years, those are the ones that I think struggle most with school discipline. It comes down to classroom management. As you mentioned before, relationship building is huge, you know, but in it's more fun art than a science, and I think that is where the experience comes in. I think it's also super important that when we're preparing teachers, that they actually get to see a classroom and have some form of experiential learning before we kind of throw them to manage their own classrooms, right? So I think you know relationship building, but often times what you know, and many principals would say this to me, you know that doesn't mean allowing students to do whatever they want in the classroom, right? So there's this balance between expectations, connecting with your students, trying to reflect their culture in what you're teaching, in how you interact with them. You know that cultural responsive element that I think as as teachers have better support as they're better prepared in their programs, and as they get more experience in the classroom, it it kind of bodes well for the disciplinary outcomes that everyone, not just black students.
Lily Jones
Mm, hmm, absolutely. And it all fits together. Like, I appreciate that too, because it's not just discipline, right? Like, it's all the things. It's culturally relevant instruction, it's student engagement, it's relationships like it's all the things that build it together.
Richard Welsh
You know, we've had some work before. One of the studies that kind of pulled me into the literature, I want to say, Anne Gregory, Russell, Skiba, Petro, Pedro nogora wrote it kind of telling us about school discipline and school achievement being kind of opposite sides of the same coin, and I think it still rings true today, right? So, you know, anecdotally, and we have some research evidence to support it as well, oftentimes, when students are acting out or misbehaving in classroom, it's kind of to cover some of their academic defeat. Chances, right? So there's this link between academic and achievement and school discipline in such a complex way, right? It causes them to misbehave or want to get out of class and in on the other side, that lost instructional time will then contribute to them being even further behind. So, yeah, I view both of them as as linked. And you know, one of the vaccines for discipline disparities would be instructional engagement, right? If there, if there's a connection, if there's if lessons are exciting and student and or educators are connecting with our students, then it kind of prevents them from acting out, and it keeps the classroom humming in a way that you know prevents some of the disruptions.
Lily Jones
Absolutely. So I know that you recently wrote Suspended Futures. Congratulations. Can you tell us a little bit about why did you decide to write a book. And I'm also just personally curious about the process of writing a book, alright?
Richard Welsh
So, you know, I've been studying school discipline for about a decade or so now, so this book is the culmination of that work. I view school discipline as one of the most important educational policy and equity issue right in in the book that I made the argument that it's almost a civil rights issue of sorts, because when we think about it, if we're concerned about educational opportunity, if we're concerned about instructional time, then school discipline is one of the main ways in which instructional time is robbed from students of color. And you know, discipline disparities are consequential. So many of us probably here the school to prison pipeline. We have growing evidence that links, you know, school discipline and being suspended and being referred to, you know, later outcomes in life, so your social economic outcomes as well as, more importantly, you know, involvement in juvenile justice and further incarceration. So, you know, these disparities really matter. So, you know, separate and apart from it being really important to me as a research topic and what I've been focusing on, I think there's a kind of a disconnect of sorts, right between all these tons of studies that we have on school discipline that's telling us, you know, what the causes are, what some of the solutions that might be working, and kind of how we talk about school discipline and how we approach it. So I wanted to, you know, create a resource. I wanted to create something with actionable solutions. I wanted to create something that would inspire educators, practitioners, policy makers, stakeholders that you know, not to wallow in despair that you know we've had these disparities for decades, but to have a open, honest conversation that really leverages the research evidence. Part of that challenge is trying not to write a dry book, right? So the biggest, I think, thing with the book was, was trying to focus on it not being another paper, right? So I think in in my day to day, I focus a lot on academic writing, and there's, there's a certain style and format to that, whereas I think with this book, I wanted to connect with, you know, a wider audience. I wasn't just speaking to academics who, you know, can access the journal articles behind the paywall, but I wanted to bring those insights, you know above or hop over the paywall and bring it to the disruptive decision makers, the superintendents, the principals, assistant principals, teachers, you know, all the folks involved in disciplinary process, and do it in a very accessible and actionable way, right? So you're supposed to be able to read a book and take something and apply to your class, take something and apply to your school, take something apply to your district. So that was kind of, you know, the wider book, the process of it, you know, it's tough long, you know, I, you know, I always tell my students that, you know, the difference between undergraduate writing and Graduate Writing is that undergraduates view writing as an event, whereas when you get to the graduate level and beyond, writing becomes a process, and Writing a book is definitely one of the most tedious process because, you know, you're going through drafts, you're going through copy editing. But in one sense, I think it was, it was very freeing, because I think when you write for academic writing, or, you know, journals and the like, you know, I think they're more. Uh, restrictions, right? I think I could be a little bit more flowering in the book, a little bit more, you know, there, I think there's a little bit more flair to my writing without it being getting, you know, untethered from what the research evidence is, right? So I kind of enjoy that process to do something different than what I normally do in terms of cracking our journal articles. So yeah.
Lily Jones
Well, it's a wonderful and really helpful contribution, so I appreciate you putting it all together into the book, and I know so many people will learn from that.
Richard Welsh
Yeah, thank you. Thank you very much.
Lily Jones
So Richard has been wonderful talking with you. Can you tell folks how they can connect with you?
Richard Welsh
Likewise. Alright, so I think the best place to connect is at the school discipline lab. Discipline lab.com so that is the hub for everything school discipline news on school discipline views, the latest research by myself as well as other school discipline scholars. So if you go to the discipline lab, that would be a connection. And then, of course, you can reach out to me directly via email. I think if you go to Peabody College of Education and Human Development at Vanderbilt, where I'm at, you'll easily find me there.
Lily Jones
Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Richard.
Richard Welsh
Oh, you're welcome. Thanks for having me.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai