Episode 84: From Teacher to Executive Function Coach with Deveren Fogle of Uluru
Deveren Fogle is a former lawyer, tech entrepreneur (2012 ‘Trep of the Month in Entrepreneur Magazine for the MyGeniusTrainer iPhone app), teacher, executive function coach, and now a tech entrepreneur again. He is launching Uluru, the first executive function platform to empower students and families to navigate the difficulties neurodiverse learners may face in their academic journeys.
Fogle tells why he left teaching and explains how his days teaching led to him finding success as an executive function coach. We also share a lot of thoughts about how teachers are so under-appreciated! It’s a good long talk and I laughed through a lot of it.
Check out Uluru here.
Topics Discussed:
How administrators don’t recognize/appreciate talented teachers
After teaching 30 kids, tutoring one is easy
Different options for teachers beyond the classroom
Resources mentioned:
Take our FREE quiz to nail down your next best career step in education.
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Read the transcript for this episode:
Welcome to Educator Forever, where we empower teachers to innovate education. Join us each week to hear stories of teachers expanding their impacts beyond the classroom and explore ways to reimagine teaching and learning.
Devin Fogle is a former lawyer, teacher, executive function coach and tech entrepreneur. He is launching Uluru the first executive function platform to empower students and families to navigate the difficulties neurodiverse learners may face in their academic journeys. Welcome, Devin. So glad to have you here.
Deveren Fogle
Oh, yes, I'm happy to be here. Definitely.
Lily Jones
Awesome. Well, I would love for you to just kind of take us through in whatever fashion you'd like, your professional journey.
Deveren Fogle
Well, how long is this episode?
Lily Jones
As long as you want?
Deveren Fogle
Several hours, okay, great. Everyone, sit down, relax, and listen to this. I have my team. I'm ready with a long intro. Yeah, I, I began, you know, I went to I went to law school, I graduated, I worked in law for a while for about three or four years. And then after I went to law school and graduated, I worked in law. And then I started a tech company. Early on in about 2009, I launched a fitness app for the iPhone, it was when you know, the iPhone became a thing and the App Store became a thing. And I was in into fitness after law, I kind of like started like a fitness company. And it kind of transitioned into us developing one of the first fitness apps, it was called My genius trainer. And that was fun. Learned a lot. I didn't have any idea what I was doing.
Deveren Fogle
But it was good, because then I had developed this like team that could build things technically. And so people started hearing about what we could do. And I was being approached by people to build other types of applications or websites or other solutions. And it kind of transitioned into becoming this kind of brand that built applications for people. And so that went on for about, I guess, about four years. And, you know, the more success I had there, the more headaches I had. And I was like, Okay, I, being an entrepreneur at this level, like, this is not how I really want to kind of live my life at the moment. And I didn't like law, because I knew in law school that I don't think law was the thing I wanted to do. And when I started working in it, I was kind of, you know, pushing papers, and you know, kind of doing the things that everyone says, you know, lawyers, the boring parts of law, which is like most of what you do. And that's which is why I went to become an entrepreneur, that went well, but the headaches kind of came. And I really wanted to kind of at least take a reset, but also do something that was really meaningful. Because you know, after a while you you can only get asked, you know, 100 times to build a new app that plays music, you know, and I was like, last thing we need is another app that plays music in my mind, you know, already. The last thing I need we need is this app that that shows pictures, but guess what, in 2013, like after I left, Instagram came along and sold for a billion dollars for an app that shared pictures, and it's like, we already have apps that sold for two years. Anyway, so I definitely wanted to kind of provide more value of the things and have a life that kind of like did that. So my wife has been a teacher for about 16 years now. And she's a great educator, she kind of had a similar trajectory, not she didn't start in something else. But you know, she went to Cornell, so she was like, you know, you know, highly educated and whatnot. And so people want to do like, oh, you should maybe work at McKinsey, you know, one of those like high flying, you know, consultancy firms or whatnot. And so she, you know, she got interviewed by them and interned at different places, and she kind of hated the, the day to day of corporate life when she was interning and so she decided to become a teacher. And so her story, it always has always inspired me, when it when we first met, you know, when I was working in law that she did this, she made this kind of like, you know, other would look at as a sacrifice that she became a teacher. But she thought of it as like, I'd rather like build brains and minds then make someone else profit. And so, which is kind of cool. And so, you know, in our relationship, we always had all these debates about what education could do to become better. And I always had all these great ideas like, Yeah, let's do this. So at this moment, when I was like having this, like, what should I do next? Like, I don't want to be, you know, keep running a company right now. She's like, Well, why don't you put your money where your mouth is and become a teacher? And, and I was like, ah, yeah, okay. I see what you go through all the time. Do I want to go down this road?
Deveren Fogle
And, and so, you know, it's what I did. And I am really good with kids. I you know, people call me like the baby whisperer, when we're around like kids with newborns. Like, if the kids crying, they're like, Oh, give it to Deborah. And I'll stop crying. And it actually does. It happens a lot. And so, you know, I do like, enjoy being around kids. So I was like, Alright, fine, like I'll I'll do it. And also, I thought, Well, okay. Cool. Would it be my career? Could it be the thing I do, and I end? So luckily, you know, we live in New York City. And you know, and we'll talk about this later on, you know, other parts of the country, it's very hard to be a teacher. And that's your only thing, you know, what's the what's the outlook with the future? What's your retirement look like and whatnot. In New York City, fortunately, you know, there's a strong union, and people are able to live, you know, my wife makes a lot of money as a teacher, now that she's been there for a while, and then her pension will pay her very well, after she's there. And so, you know, I was like, Yeah, that sounds great. I could do that. And then I said, also, though, subsequently, maybe, since I do have an entrepreneurial spirit, would there be a way to innovate on education? So how would I be able to find out what that is? And so I went through, you know, got my Master's in special ed and general education license, and both of those. And then I started teaching in my first year.
Deveren Fogle
What do you know it like my third grade class, I was teaching at an inner city school in New York City. And on the state exams, that particular class scored, like, was like, ranked number four in the entire state. Wow. And everyone's like, Oh, my gosh, what did you and you know, I had a co teacher there at the time, and they're everyone's like, Oh, what did you do? What do you know? And in my mind, I'm like, wow, what did we do? You know?
Deveren Fogle
Because now if people wanted to come and observe the class, or, you know, what, but you know, but the questions were always around, like, what, you know, what curriculum? Did you use? What, you know, what writing, you know, curriculum? Did you use use Lucy Caulkins? You know, are you doing fundations? You know, all of these things? It's like, well, no, I mean, we did you know, in our minds, it wasn't a curriculum, you know, we were like, we, you know, and even my wife, she, she knew, like, what we were, what I was good at. And she was like, ah, it makes sense. Like, of course, your kids did. Well, and, and, you know, so I would always explain to people like, hey, you know, it wasn't really about the curriculum, it was about the process that we were giving kids to be able to, to access the content, you know, and whether it doesn't matter what type of math it was, like, yeah, teaching math, but they had to learn how to problem solve, you know, if they're reading the, it's not like this new science of reading, there's no one coming around with like, you know, everyone wants to claim there's a new science reading, we could talk more about that later. But it's like, forever, how many more? Like, there's words on pages, we have to read them, you know, and they're like, Well, you know, you gotta get your vocabulary and all this. So it's like, well, yeah, but like, we can only cover so much, you know, but, you know, giving them this, like, foundation was like, really powerful for them. And so I guess I kind of went a little bit past about how I got into the profession. So I kind of stopped there. But my journey, you know, into the classroom. Yeah, that's so interesting. And it's always interesting to me hearing everybody's different perspectives that they bring. But I wonder from that to, like, what do you think was the difference in how you were teaching them? Yeah, I mean, so it's, I mean, it started off with, like, you know, it was, this particular school was a school that really, you know, engaged with the parents. And, you know, I would get to school and have to, you know, if students were late, the day before, whatever, you know, I would be tasked with, like, calling parents in the morning to get them to get to get their kids to school, you know, asking, is there a way we can help make sure they get to school on time, you know, it's all of this like little, these little things of like, understanding how engaged parents need to be, as well. An educator say that all the time, right? It's like we kids are only with us for a certain period of time. It's like, what's happening in these transitions between school and home, home to school, that really make the difference. And so, you know, I created really good relationships with the parents, I think, because of that process. So a lot of other people in the school, were was tasked with that same thing, but it was for me, I was like, Okay, I need to make sure that this is not a cure accusatory, because a lot of schools that do this kind of thing, can kind of seemingly be like, well, we need to parent your child, you know, and you don't know what you're doing. And we don't care about what your condition is, usually to get your kid here, you know, and so, again, in my same school, or in the same, you know, network I was in, like, we still outperformed other people. And it was the relationships I was building not with, with the parents then to get the kids to buy in, right. So then it was like, alright, we need to obviously be demanding of these kids and understanding that we need to move them, but they don't need to understand why that we're doing this. We focused on just like the processes, you know, if you know students didn't understand math or reading, it wasn't like throw more math at them. Or let's not give them like, a lot more homework to do. And then they're doing that badly. Like let's, let's address the, let's address the root causes. You know, and just to being able to have that freedom to understand that writing, for example, I remember, you know, again, the city exams used to be even more difficult than at that time, they were like, timed. And, you know, you had to finish by a certain time limit and all this. So, you know, we did a lot of reading, like smaller readings scenarios with them to help them really get the at bats at practicing the strategies, you know.
Deveren Fogle
And then just being attuned to what their misunderstandings could have been, you know, for writing.
Deveren Fogle
I remember, you know, reading, some students would write a ton, and you start reading it, and you're like, Oh, the ones that wrote the most didn't really know what the answers were like, deny access to great ideas get really good, really quick at like, Oh, they're just kind of like, just throw the whole kitchen sink at this, you know.
Deveren Fogle
But I think a lot of teachers, unfortunately, don't have the chance sometimes to even do that. Because they're inundated with so many other things. And this particular environment was a place where we were able to kind of take a little bit slower approach to be like, Okay, let's figure out like, what, we don't need to push more papers or more things, we can, like, do these things really well. And then they'll translate, you know, as opposed to just always switching gears. So, but having that idea, as a teacher, as well as the relationships with with the parents, and then, you know, having them to be able to back up, what you were doing in class was was a really big thing. But I think you know, attendance, getting them there on time, that made the students understand how important it was to be there.
Deveren Fogle
Didn't make it stressful wasn't like this, this, pull it pushing pool, and then just being able to constantly give feedback. In the moment while these students were working, and having the freedom to do that, you know, I think, you know, we will get into my current practice. But what happens now is, there is no for actionable feedback, that's it's not even really possible, because you're always doing something new. They want you to do like, five different types of essays for fifth graders, you know, you argumentative? Do you do a research, you need to do this or that it's like, I can teach them to probably do like two essays really well, this whole year, and that will change their lives more than doing 10 essays in different ways.
Lily Jones
Absolutely. I think it's like, they're such this frenzy, in education often. And like, we got to cram it in, like, we got to do this, like now we're doing this other thing. We're covering the standards. And like, here we go. And so I hear you talk, like, it's cool to hear you almost feel surprised about like, Oh, my students did well on this test. But it's like, because you focused on what really matters, right? And so it's like, what really matters is the relationships and the feedback, and the like targeted support that's individualized. And like all the greater thinking skills, like all those things, and then it's like, of course, people will do good on a test. Right, right. But it's like, we don't need to just focus on the test. Like it becomes so convoluted, often in schools where it's just like, wait, no, like, what really matters is like that kids understand this. And like, let's slow it down so that every kid can understand this. But I think just that frenzy can be so intense.
Deveren Fogle
Yeah, yeah. And it's hard to block that out. As I you know, I think I'm gonna want to go some different but like, the reason why I introduced myself being you know, when going to law school and having this other life, is I realized that like, a lot of people who don't have like a lot of teachers, they go in the classroom, they don't have this, like other plan to do outside of what they're doing. So when someone comes in, like, you know, even during those days, people would be like, oh, we need to be doing this, this and this, and this. And then I like, because I had this kind of fallback. If I wanted to leave, I could, whatever. I wasn't thinking about leaving. But I was always able to kind of push back a little bit like, but wait, really? Do I need to do 1000 things? I'll give you an anecdote later, something else is going to be great. Blow Your Mind. But you know, it's hard, because I know a lot of teachers go through this, like, I think a lot of teachers in the classrooms realize that there's this frenzy going on. It's like, what are we actually doing?
Lily Jones
Yeah, totally. And I think you're right, that it's like, you know, teachers often feel stuck. And like, that's where, you know, often teachers coming to me feeling stuck, like, oh, there's just no other options for me to work in education or, you know, follow my passion, or even be the teacher, I want to be within the classroom. And it's like, there are options, right? Like, there are possibilities for everyone. But I think when you're in this frenzy, where everyone's just kind of like one track mind,
Lily Jones
we're gonna teach another year, like started again, it's so hard to even have the cognitive ability, no capacity to even think beyond like the day to day of all the things that need to be done.
Deveren Fogle
Absolutely.
Lily Jones
I wonder along with that, like knowing that I know you said at the beginning, you know, seeing what your wife had been through being a teacher, you were kind of like, I don't know if I want to jump into this and I'm curious That's kind of after being a teacher yourself. Oh, what'd you think in terms of your own, you know, career trajectory, but also just like, Why do you think teachers are leaving the profession?
Deveren Fogle
Yeah. So, so one day, um, I was, you know, when I wasn't teaching and my wife was teaching, I, you know, I got home and she was she was sitting at the dining room table, like on the phone, like, well, where's he at? Who was he with? Who was he with at the end of the day and pull up line, you could tell like she, you know, she's like, stressed and trying to enable another phone, another call comes in, and blah, blah, blah. And so something happened, where, you know, during dismissal, she did all her things, to get the kid to leave, you know, she left the half the building, you know, he laughed, it's all the things that normally happen. And then, like, all of a sudden, the kid kind of goes missing in a way, like, long story short, he was found it's fine. But like, during this moment, like, she was kind of brought into this whole thing. And it's like, Wait, like, literally, like, if she did, she couldn't do anything, but to care, because that's her student, right? Like, she deals with the student more than anybody else in this kid's life. Maybe, right. She's like, probably the only constant. But but in this moment, like, you know, there's a huge school though, and other people involved and like, and she this was outside of her purview, but everyone's coming to her now. Like, what what did you what may have you done wrong, right? Even if even like, obviously, she didn't do anything wrong, and she didn't know he's wrong, but just like, the fact that she's kind of being accused or like, lightweight, like, did you do everything? Like, was it the right person? Oh, my gosh, yeah. You know, it's like, that's, these kinds of scenarios are what's happening, like you were leaving, like, you never know what's gonna hit you as a teacher. Right? Like, you literally think you did a really good job. Which is like, probably the hardest job you can do. Right? Like, yeah, but it's still not enough. Yes, absolutely. 100%, where it's like, impossible. You're like, I have been working constantly and like caring about these children constantly. Just like the emotional toll, you know, it can take and then be told, like, oh, but you can do this, you know, oh, boy, you didn't do this. Oh, but you could do a little bit better. Like, that is so exhausting. Yeah. I hear that. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's just the first part of you know, first answer that question why people are leaving, you know, people are leaving, you know, there's just no support for the teacher. Like, there's very little backup for anything the teacher does now. And, you know, I mean, I get it, there's like, a lot of tension, you know, as far as, like, what's happening with kids, parents, and how they feel about teachers and all this, but it's like, none of that's really borne out by any actual stuff. Except for like, the stuff we hear in the media, right, there is there's definitely some sort of, we all know, there's some sort of like, thing against, like, education, you know, and the only place to point the fingers really are the teachers, you know, people can people who aren't in it, right. And then teachers are like, whoa, and unfortunately, and this is, this is always the thing that happened to me too, is like, people are like, Well, why don't you just speak up? It's like, well, we really don't even have time to do that.
Lily Jones
Yeah, and where's the arena?
Deveren Fogle
Like, what are we talking to? Yeah, I'm in my classroom like, literally every day, I'm like, literally trying to solve problems, like in the, you know, and so, there's no, like, support where it's like, you know, I've heard principal say, like, Well, yeah, you know, if this teacher if this parent says this, and then like, the tip, the parent says this, and it's like, it's, it's your, it's on you, like, I can't do anything about it. It's like, well, like, I have to address like, 30 kids, other people in the room, like, the least you could do is like, back me up a little bit, you know? Or, you know, and then so that, so again, no backup, no support, no seeming like, feeling like you're a part of something that's supporting you. And then just, I mean, you know, the biggest thing is just like the impossibility of the job itself, you know, if you don't have all those things, the job is already if you had if everything was perfect, it's pretty much impossible. I mean, I was getting the schools six o'clock in the morning to make phone calls starting at 630. To get the parents to come in, right, like, Yes. And you asked me what was the reason like that was one of my if, you know, I'm being completely honest. I mean, I think we did a great job teaching. I think the kids did well, you know, but also just making sure those other kids that weren't always there, that's why like the whole class got four is basically right, like everybody, you know, and we got kids from other classrooms who were doing poorly and they got put into art class because
Deveren Fogle
Yeah, you know, they're doing okay, they can manage the kids or whatever. But it's like, let's really be honest with like, some of the things that were good and but kids, but, you know, like if
Deveren Fogle
you know, any teachers out there if you call if you are in good thing about it was we were encouraged to call at 630 in the morning to get that get people to come to school. And if they if the parents were like, Oh, is it too early or whatever, and they went to the principal, like, in that case, the principal did have ours back is like, hey, that's kind of what we feel like we'll help, you know, get us here. And so again, from my side, I'm like, I just want to make sure we're not telling these people that they're doing a bad job parenting. So when I ever addressed them, you know, I think sometimes at the from the school level, it wasn't, it did kind of come across as like, oh, well, we need to do the best thing for your kid, you're not doing a better job. But still,
Deveren Fogle
it's still at that point, I was backed up by what I was doing to get them to come to school. If you go to like, I know, definitely here public school in New York City. And like I was a teacher. And I started calling parents on my own 630 in the morning, to get them to come to school. Then they got to the principal, they would not be saying to the parent, like Yeah, I got my kid, my teachers back, they will be coming to me and be like, You need to stop that.
Lily Jones
Yes, yes. I hear that. And like, it's so like, could we also like if like you did this thing that works, right? Like, could we also hire somebody who's not a teacher, to be the person who is like, works from six to 10, or whatever, calling the families making sure the kids show up at school. Like, let's like, I think that's what's been what's so frustrating to me often about education, too, is like, we see things that work. And then it's like, they kind of go nowhere, because there's not the capacity or like internal structure. So it's like, ideally, right? You did this thing it works. Let's take it off your back. So you can actually teach and, like, do the thing, but with more resources. I know you then transitioned out of the classroom. Can you tell us about what led you to leave teaching and like what you have been doing since then?
Deveren Fogle
Yeah, so I, you know, I had I finally had my like, probably my final, I have reached the final straw when I went to move to the I got recruited to teach at a middle school. And same thing was happening, you know, they would, they would come and observe my lessons, what lessons are going well, you know, I was teaching in a specific way to make sure like, again, those processes I know that work that I learned about early on in my career that like, Hey, I rocked out in third grade, fourth grade, you know, all these kids like we should be, why aren't we asking me what I did? No, no one's still really asking me like we see this. This is real data. Like I've done this with kids. I had to leave I you know, I had my last count, like kind of fed up with, you know, I again, same kind of situation, they wanted me to to observe a classroom. Again, I think it's like this. Because people haven't had a lot of success in teaching. They just want to tow the tubing. They just want to tow the status quo. That's all they know. That's how they, you know, either get money or they're being observed on their side. And they don't have the teachers back. They don't know how to have the even at the administrative level. They don't, they can't say to like the superintendent like, Oh, this guy. Yeah, he doesn't do all the showy stuff, because he's actually getting results. They can't do that. They don't know how to do that. I don't think, yeah, well, the system doesn't know how to do that. I think it's so many layers. So I left. Um, and I, well, it's funny, because in the midst of me, like kind of being like, Oh, I think I'm gonna leave, like, I've met this woman who's a neighbor who had kind of moved in, and she had talked us a lot. And she was a psychologist, and she met me and we were talking and so she was like, Have you ever thought about doing executive function coaching? And I was like, oh, it's like, you know, not really, what is it? What you I mean, I knew what the second functioning was, but you know, what it looked like. And so one thing led to another, I started with this agency. And it was good. It was really, it was really good for me to kind of get introduced to this to this world. So I did that. And I started having like, a lot of success with my kids. Now I'm like, one on one with kids. And of course, like, in my mind, I'm like, Oh, of course, I'm gonna, these kids are going to improve because she's me with this kid. Like there's a classroom.
Deveren Fogle
Yeah, I actually have, you know, it's funny, because a lot of my colleagues though, were like, PhDs, people who didn't have, you know, academic classroom experience managing kids and that sort of thing at a high level, and a lot of them weren't getting the same results. And so people were like, asking, like, what, you know, what am I doing? And then I got on this one case.
Deveren Fogle
And this is kind of like when my trajectory went really high is there's a psychiatrist out of Columbia. He's now executive director of Uluru. His name is Dr. Owen Lewis and he was like, I need to meet with you because I need to understand what you're doing with these kids. Great. Finally, right? Yeah.
Lily Jones
Yeah.
Deveren Fogle
Good sign like, Okay, we're here we go, like, you know, someone's significant. And, you know, he's very, very, you know, well known, but he's you know, but he's common sense. Like, and you know, he'd worked with people, lots of different industries and education, executive function, coaches, tutors and things. And, you know, he sat me down one day, he was like, you know, I'm not one, tell your audience, I'm not trying to brag or anything, which is what he said, like, I haven't seen that kind of results that you that, that you've been able to produce. And the reason why I say that first is like, to kind of like, big up the being an educator, for things that you learn, right? Like, you know, I'm never and I'm a different person, and everyone else, you're a different person, everyone else, whoever's listening. But if you can take what you've learned from something that not very many people do at a high level, and you try your best to do it at a high level, that experience is invaluable. And not many people have it, even though people in the in the world want to lambaste teachers, right. Like, yes, they're like the root, you know, like, they're, like, the lowest of the low or all the things that we hear, right? Or, or not even just maybe here, but are, you know, presumed or kind of secretly out there, like, oh, you become a teacher, because you that's what you had to do, or, or whatever, like, all these stupid things, like, No, you know, what, the first thing I told him was like, Hey, listen, I know how to manage kids. A, like I've taught 30 Kids, right, like, so it's not not a problem for you to manage one kid, you know, and, you know, conversely, or not conversely, but, you know, these were kids with complex learning challenges as well. You know, ADHD, ADD, you know, autism. And, but still, you know, all of the things apply to helping them move. And so, that's when it kind of like, that's when the career really took off. It's like, okay, then kind of I became the executive functioning person who wanted to try to use because, again, people weren't having a lot of success with EF. And again, it's like, yeah, it's almost like education is become stale, right? It's like, oh, we try that we've maybe tried to EF coach or we've maybe tried, you know, education isn't really working. So education is bad, or E is not really working. So EF coaching is bad was No, it's not that it's like, who's doing it? What's the quality behind it? And what's the idea? Let's not just throw out the baby with the bathwater.You know, so, yeah. So that's how I, that was my trajectory into the, into the field.
Lily Jones
Yeah, I mean, I'm like, thank goodness, again, somebody saw the work that you were doing. And I think just like so often, this is what's incredibly frustrating, like honestly enraging about education, to me is like so often, teachers are doing amazing things in their classrooms that no one gets to see. And is never shared. So like a teacher over here, like, you know, I talk to teachers all over the world. And so it's like a teacher over here is like, hey, this thing's working for me. And other he's just like, I'm actually doing the same thing across the country. No one else is, I was like, Can we share? Like, can we elevate that, like, teachers have the answers?
Deveren Fogle
Yes, we should. Can we do a T shirt, Lily? Literally, I think we should actually create that T shirt. Like, teachers love the answers. Like, yes, we like in that and not even just education answers because like, literally, we're there. Because yes, like 50% of my time with with these with these engagements now. And I'll just say it like, you know, taught in inner cities, I've taught at charter schools, I've taught with super, you know, people who are in poverty. And now my, my, my clientele are, have super affluent have the means. But the crazy thing is is like they're all experiencing the same problems. Yeah, right there. But then, but like, but 50% of my engagements with these people are like 50% with the parents and helping them guide them through the things that their kids are going through. And it's like, wow, like, I wouldn't have had these answers either. Even all this parent solution side, if I wasn't a teacher, like I, I've seen enough. I've seen enough kids, I've seen enough relationships with parents. Like, I do have the answers because I was a teacher. Let's just be honest. Yes, totally. And like you said before, like teachers spend the most time you know, with children. We're around children all the time, like how many other people have 30 however many kids in their class every year for however many years, right? You see a very large percentage or a large amount of children. So you are experts. Yes. Children learn there is no there's no psychiatrist or psychologist that sits in the office that sees like two kids, three kids.
Deveren Fogle
The day or whatever, that gets the experience, the hands on experience of how kids are learning how their emotions are affecting their, you know, their, their engagement with education, like teachers have those answers. And that's what I, that's when I told Owen to like he, you know, he sings my praises, even when we're talking to people that you know about the company and everything, but I'm like, listen, I know, like 510 other teachers that could, like rock out with what I'm doing to, like, they are like, but they're in the classroom, like, they're like, fantastic teachers, like, you know, it's also funny, because I deal with like, a lot of like, independent schools. And sometimes people, you know, in the, in New York City, people are gonna, like, hate me to allergies, like, it's great. And it's gonna be some good news lately on you. Like Devin said, this, we hate you all, you know, all publicity is good publicity. But people equate good teaching with the wrong things. And when I when I enter an engagement with a family, and I see what the kids doing, and how poorly the academics are, or, you know, the teaching is at the school where people are spending tons of money, but that I literally know, like, some people that are like in Corona, queens that if they were in that school, what I what you're gonna give me 12 kids, and I want to, like, I want to move every single, like, I know, these people are gonna be doing great. I can, I can name I can name the teachers, right? I can, like literally name them out right now. And that's why, you know, I'm saying that because if you if you are able to build up that confidence, like, my, my wife is one of them, right? Like, people are always asking her, Well, why don't you become an administrator? Do you ever want to become a principal? She's like, No, I've never want to become a principal like this, of course, you know, like, it's, it's horrible. Like, she wants to be in the, you know, so it's, so it kind of goes to the point where it's like, it's always I think there's this push and pull between teachers and admins sometimes, because a lot of times, the people who become admins weren't really great teachers.
Deveren Fogle
You know, I mean, literally, the woman who took me out of the room, like, there was one time she was talking to people, and I heard her say, like, ya know, I was really never really great, you know, a teacher, I didn't play that was my thing. So I went to administrate administration. And in my mind, I'm like, wait, you, you're admitting that you had struggled as struggles as a teacher? And now you're an administrator? telling teachers what to do? Yeah, like, how does that fit? Like, how is that the bar?
Lily Jones
I know, are like, why is that what happens? Yeah, I mean, it makes me think of like how you were saying, like, like, there are innovators, right? And then there's like, people upholding the status quo. And like, so much of administration is like, upholding the status quo. Like, this is just the way we do it. It's very, like rules based. Same thing in the classroom, right? And then it like trickles down to classrooms are very, like compliance. Rather than like innovation, like creativity, like seeing all people is like, amazing humans. And so I think that, like, there's almost two cracks, you know, that teachers and administrators can go on, and often those teachers that are very much like, this is just like a formula. You know, like, they fit more into the administration of like, this is a formula. Like, this is the way we do it. Yeah. So it's hard. You know, it's hard having the innovation fight against that.
Deveren Fogle
Yeah. I think that's why I'm really a fan of whenever I see like, I think there's a little bit of a movement, obviously need people to help you to, like run the schools, but like, when it's like teacher led, you know? Yes, then you can monitor like, what's actually working and what's not working? And let's pass this along. Let's share it, what do you do? Oh, I'm doing that, right. It's not it's not this, like I need to satisfy Miss Johnson in the office, because I want to be, you know, I want her to like me, or whatever. It's like, we're just trying to actually make change here. And what are you what if you were if you did work, work, then I don't care if it was your idea, I want to use it. As opposed to these egos. Sometimes it happened, where it's like, well, if you're not doing what I did, when I'm saying then I don't want you to do what you're doing.
Lily Jones
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I know, my kids, amazingly go to a school that's teacher-run. There's no principal. So the teachers run the school. And it's awesome. Like, I mean, it's complicated, but it's, like, really amazing to see teachers not have to, like go through so many layers, like, Can I do this? How about I can do that, you know, like, it's done by consensus. Teachers are in charge. And they can really move things forward in different ways. But I would love to hear more about what you're up to now with your new project.
Deveren Fogle
Yeah. So So So being an, you know, executive function coach, and understanding just how important processes of learning is kind of over and above like, the curriculum that you're teaching.
Deveren Fogle
Because that's what that's how I'm getting a lot of this success as an EF coach, is the kids come home and what so what I'm seeing now that I'm out of the classroom, doesn't matter again. The the wealth of the individual, when kids come home, there's like literally no support for them. You know, you know, they get pieces of homework, you know, assignments to do what there is a neurodiverse student or you know, or a neurotypical student, there's no fallback plan, like on this from this school to home transition. And with EF one of the reasons going back to the story about why I was successful early on is like, all of those processes I was teaching the students were happening in the moment so that, you know, executive functioning is like a self regulation is just self regulation that all humans have to come, either have to learn explicitly, or see modeled. But the only way it's really internalized is if it's like, reinforced in the moment while someone's doing something. So it's like, if you're in the classroom, and you're learning how to read and interpret a passage, you need to learn how to read interpret a passage, and someone reinforced that learning what those strategies are.
Deveren Fogle
But people go home, and now you're like, Okay, read and interpret this passage, and maybe you write down some, you know, some things for the kids to think about. You know, all teachers know that, I think, most really good teachers, and just teachers in general, understand that process is important. But it's so hard to do that, again, like we talked about the the frenzy that's going on, it's like we can't teach process, we only can just give good output, right? We just need to like submit a bunch, we've now we have edtech, well, we can like assign all the math homework we need, right? We can, we can get the we can get the grades really fast. But who's teaching that process behind what you need to do in those in those situations. And so when I'm working with kids, I realize it's across the board, like these kids, just the reason why they're not initiating tasks, or they're procrastinating or whatever. It's just like, they don't know how to access this. They don't have, you know, they're not also they're not unfortunately, they're not being taught that in the classroom, because again, it's frenzied, teachers are just trying to make it through the day, give out as much curriculum as possible, get as much output so they can show administrators or whoever it is, you know, we I did all these things.
Deveren Fogle
But no one's giving process. So when kids come home, they're like,
Deveren Fogle
I gotta, I gotta write this essay, or I gotta read this history. So just make it even easier. I got to read this history and answer these like four short response questions.
Deveren Fogle
What am I like? How do I What do I do?
Deveren Fogle
Right? Like, what? What is a good answer? What is the wrong answer? I have this rubric here. Sometimes there's a rubric. Sometimes there's not when the rubrics are also, like, convoluted, because it's like, teachers, you know, to their, you know, I'm not blaming teachers, we're not blaming parents or anything. But you know, just like the practice is hard. Because even if you get a rubric, that kind of starts to delve into what the processes should be to get a four or get an A, or whatever it is, those are, in fact, like, executive functioning like parts of that academic process. But But then it's like in a chart, and it's like four different things. It's like why even show like, what you need to do to get a zero, like, what we don't need to see that really trying to get the kids to do only good things like so it's like,
Deveren Fogle
if you're out there, teachers don't produce any more rubrics. And if anyone has anything, you can tell them to email me, or don't put up your rubrics that give all the ways you can get a wrong answer or bad
Deveren Fogle
majority of the rubric, like the first two, the first two rows, right, the first two columns of what you could do to get maybe an A or B, and then because that's where we want to be,
Deveren Fogle
but so that that process is not being delivered in real time. And so when I'm working with kids, like I understand that because I've, I've done the practice, I've seen it work. And so when kids start to do that with me, then they're like, oh, okay, there is a strategy to organize my thinking, or to regulate around this, how to comprehend this passage properly, by using some executive functioning strategies of just like, giving yourself a structure to comprehending there's no, there's no magic to it, right, you know? And so, these processes are what executive functions are, but unless I'm always there, it's still not that great, right? Because, really, and so what's been working? The reason why would I do his work is I give parents like notes. In the past, I've always given like a big write up of what I've worked on, and tell them you know, listen, these are the things that you should make sure you reinforce while they're doing this work, because that'll help them to it to become a habit
Deveren Fogle
in which is great, because that's what's kind of move these kids, even the kids who are like, can't be medicated and have really tough learning challenges. So then the more people trying to you know, schedule with me and me not being able to take them and having like, a limited amount of people I could actually refer to that could do what I do, because I can't allow them to really good teachers are still in the classroom, right? Like, yes, who can do what I do, oh, can we clone you? Could do what I do, right? Like, I know where she is like, I call her right now, but she's a teacher, right? She's like, rocking out.
Deveren Fogle
So, I realize last year, we know what the advent of AI and everything, you know, I was like, Wait, maybe we could develop something that can provide context to what the students are doing at home.
Lily Jones
All right, not a new curriculum, we're not asking the kids to do something new, not more, I excel, not more Khan Academy to make you good at math, like, just whatever your assignments are, okay? If you got to kind of, we can help you through that if we can, or whatever it is you're doing. But Uluru is like, you're this, this like executive functioning processing coach that provides context and coaching in the moment in real time to your assignments. And so it's kind of like an executive function coach in your pocket. Amazing. I mean, that sounds so awesome. And so needed, and also a really cool way to think about like, that is really inspiring to think about, like, Okay, this thing that, like, you almost like workshopped this in in your classroom in some way, right? Like you learned kind of the foundations, then you did this as a coach. And then it's like, how do we like scale it to more people? Yeah. And so I love that, you know, that is kind of going back to what we were saying was so frustrated about education, sometimes like, alright, this thing worked on a small scale. Let's like, try it on a bigger scale. How can we help more kids with it? How can we help more students with it? Going forward? Yeah.
Deveren Fogle
Yeah, I know, we're almost out of time I do I do want to, like, tell you no, I think you are unless you wanted to ask me directly to I think you may want to know more about what to do what you can do after after, after education, or whatnot, you know, I think
Deveren Fogle
it's, it's, well, first, email us email, email us because, you know, even though we are creating this thing that's like automatic, and we want it to be autonomous, as much as possible, we do know that parents do still love a touch point. And it's really helpful. And so we are thinking of ways to incorporate, you know, bringing on people who can provide those touch points in certain ways people, but they, I want them to have education experience, right? I don't want just someone who, who wouldn't got their PhD or their master's degree, and then they like, work in marketing, or, you know, or they or even just like working in a clinic. You know, I think that the power is we talked about that, what I did what I do, and what, like you said, Good teachers do in the classroom every day that's not being shared is like, the fact that like, all this stuff that comes from teaching.
Deveren Fogle
And, you know, I think this is also part of a movement, right? I think that like, what, and also one of the reasons I'm talking like this, too, is like I kind of hope teachers take more pride in their craft or understand it's a hard thing. I was at a, at a dinner with some, they were just like, I didn't really know them. That was they were like a kind of acquaintances of somebody else my wife knew. And there was a woman there who was talking about, yeah, I just got my master's, and
Deveren Fogle
I got to teach him and I got this job. And, you know, they wanted me to do something else. It was like extra, it was like, what wasn't really extra. It's it was like, they want her to help make sure the kids were paying attention or whatever, right? And so she didn't, but she was like, I said, I'm not gonna do that. Because I'm, you know, all I had to do was just like, teach math, right? And I, I made this face and my wife was like, don't, don't do it. She's like, give me the space, like, don't do it.
Deveren Fogle
And I heard her saying some more things. And I was like, I can't let this go. Literally, this is ridiculous. Either she's, like, wants to be naive, or she's like, just being mean, or whatever. And so I was like, basically, I was like, Listen,
Deveren Fogle
if this is your idea about what you think teaching is, then you maybe shouldn't go into teaching. You know, as I said, it doesn't have to be a struggle. But you have to understand that like, these are parts of teaching. And when you become good at that, then that's when you are really a really good teacher. And that's where you should strive to be. And I think for your listeners, it's like,
Lily Jones
I think there are opportunities like executive functioning, coaching, you know, working in cleanse, I think, hopefully this as this movement grows, it's like, yeah, teachers kind of do have the answers. Like if you're, if you used to be a teacher, like, and you have a master's in teaching, and you used to teach with some like, okay, maybe you don't need an extra Master's to become a social worker, like maybe, yeah, you already have or maybe you've already done it. That's possible. Become a social worker, because you literally are working with groups your entire day. Yes. I mean, I always say, I'm like, I will never talk anyone out of education. Like, obviously, I'm into education. But teachers already know how to do so many things. I think it's so hard, like, in a whole society that tells them that they don't, right to really believe that. But I think seeing examples like yours are so powerful, you know, and really aren't, but like teachers are education experts. And there are so many things we know that need to change about education, and really, teachers are the ones who need to change it. So empowering teachers that way. And Deborah, thank you so much for joining us. Can you tell people how they can connect with you? Yeah, come to www dot the uluru.com. So you spell it it's just the th e u l u r u.com. And yeah, we're
Deveren Fogle
We're running a beta right now we go into full launch in August. But if you come by the website, you can email us you can get, you can maybe get a beta as well. So, you know, beta access and yeah, hopefully you're
Lily Jones
wonderful. I will put the link in the show notes as well. Thanks again. Thanks so much.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai