Episode 120: Exploring Alternatives to College with Kathleen deLaski of Education Design Lab
Kathleen deLaski is the founder and board chair of the Education Design Lab, which works with colleges, states, and employers to design shorter, more targeted forms of higher education. The Lab has pioneered the "micro-pathway" model with community colleges and leads work across the ecosystem to help employers look beyond college degrees to validate skills. Kathleen also founded or co-founded four non profits, some of which serve the K-12 education ecosystem. Before entering the field of education, she worked for several years as a journalist and later became the first woman to serve as spokesperson for the Pentagon.
In this episode, I talk to deLAski about her new book, “Who Needs College Anymore?” and what she’s learned about how students feel about higher education. She identifies four categories of people who need college degrees and four who don't, advocating for micro-pathways and apprenticeships. She also discussed the evolving landscape of higher education and the importance of exposing students to various career pathways.
Topics Discussed:
How her varied career led to the Education Design Lab
What data from charter schools revealed about college
The need for flexible, job-relevant education
Resources mentioned:
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Read the transcript for this episode:
Welcome to Educator Forever, where we empower teachers to innovate education. Join us each week to hear stories of teachers expanding their impacts beyond the classroom and explore ways to reimagine teaching and learning.
Kathleen deLaski is the founder and board chair of the Education Design Lab, which works with colleges, states and employers to design shorter, more targeted forms of higher education. The lab has pioneered the micro pathway model with community colleges, and leads work across the ecosystem to help employers look beyond college degrees to validate skills. Early in her career as an executive at Fortune 500 company Sallie May, Kathleen founded their award winning corporate foundation. She was a television correspondent for ABC News, covering the White House and foreign affairs, a consumer product developer in the early days of AOL and in the Clinton administration, the first woman to serve as Chief Pentagon spokesperson. Welcome Kathleen. So nice to have you here.
Kathleen deLaski
Thank you for having me.
Lily Jones
I'm very excited to talk to you about your research and your recent book, but I would love to start off just hearing a little bit more about you, and if you could tell us about your professional journey.
Kathleen deLaski
Well, some people have described it as an ADD journey, in the sense that I have these like strong pivots, and it appears like I get distracted and I go off and do something entirely different. But I was a journalist for the first 20 years of my career with, you know, a side stint in government. I was actually went into the Pentagon. I'd been covering foreign affairs, and I went into the Clinton administration and tried government for a little while as the as the spokesman for the Pentagon, as the cold war was ending. So that was like, one interesting phase for me. That was, like, a highly interesting, you know, study and how government works. And then I ended up, I was at AOL for a while in the early days of online, and learned a lot about what do consumers want, and how do you figure out? How do you know what they want? And that's that's that plays into the book later and then. But then I found my way into education. I was an executive at Sallie Mae, which some people may not remember anymore, because they don't play the role they used to. But they were the largest student loan provider for many years, and they were fortune, 500 companies well, and I started their foundation. And, you know, went around the country trying to help people figure out how to pay for college. You know, back then, in the early 2000s the message was, college is possible, and the government actually provides entitlements in forms of, you know, subsidized loans and grants for you to go. And you know, that was a very enlightening experience. And I worked in the charter school movement for a while, in the K 12 charter school movement, and then I found my way into into higher ed reform through a series of really nonprofits, the last of which I founded the education Design Lab, and that that that experience the past 12 years really forms the kind of backbone for the book, because it's an organization based on using human centered design to help people who for whom college was not designed, like, how do we how do we help them find a path that works for them? So that's what, that's what led to the book. Is this last chapter of mine at the Education Design Lab.
Lily Jones
Wonderful. That's so interesting to see how all these pieces connect to. I mean, I see them all as building on each other. Or, you know, it's interesting seeing also how you can put together those experiences in your book and kind of reflect on and put together these different chapters of your life into different chapters of the book as well.
Kathleen deLaski
Yes, you notice there's a touch of memoir in the book, for sure.
Lily Jones
Yeah, definitely. So, could you tell us a little bit about your book "Who Needs College Anymore," and why did you write it?
Kathleen deLaski
Yeah, well, it really, you know, I was trying to sort of dissect why that was the book. I mean, I probably only have one book in me, I think, and this is it. And why? Why this one? And I think it really started for me when my children were in the K 12 system. I have two children, and they both really struggled in the pressure cooker as they got to middle school and then to high school. We live in the Washington, DC area, where, you know, everybody has, you know, a couple of degrees and and, and the pressure from parents and it's just expected that you're that you're going to go to college. Mean, even back I grew up here, it wasn't any different in the 70s. But it's gotten a lot worse as I as I learned with my own children, and they both, they were not good fits for the system, either of them, and for different reasons, one of them ended up going to college after starting community college, but, you know, left a couple of different high schools and couldn't find the right fit. The second one did not go to college and still hasn't, and she's actually profiled in the book, and so I, I I was often approached by a lot of other parents who were struggling in the system, because they would see, you know, my, you know, our, some of our troubles were pretty public. And I was often approached by other moms who, you know, would quietly say, you know, I don't think my kid is on the college track. You know, what are you going to do? So what should I do? You know, we would we kind of, you know, band together. This was in the, you know, kind of mid 2000 aughts, when, you know, there really, nobody really understood any other pathways, except for trade school. And, you know, if you have daughters, as I did, yeah, that's not really, you weren't really looking at that option. So it's like, well, what else could they do? And I used to say to the girls, you know, you'll be flipping burgers at McDonald's if you don't do your homework, you know. And they didn't do their homework, and, and so, you know, I was always stressed. And now I look back on that time, and, you know, just cringe at at how I didn't understand, you know, why things weren't working for them. But that, you know, feeling like an outsider, led me to some of these other things that I mentioned to you, that I did, you know, and part of it was about thinking, Wait, 60% of Americans adults don't have a college, a four year college degree, and, you know, they're finding workarounds or not. You know, there's a lot of stress and and resentment that that creates, as we see in the political environment, you know, right before us and and why aren't we lifting up the other pathways, not to, you know, not to bad mouth the idea of getting a degree. I don't dissuade anyone from who's interested in getting a degree, go for it. But, you know, there's so many more people as the price tag goes up, and, you know, the economy is is, you know, the inflation goes up, and people are feeling the pinch of trying to, you know, make that decision. There should be other options, and there are some, and I profile those workarounds in the book, but they're not obvious enough, they're not they're not fun, they're not well funded, they're not well evaluated, and that has to change, and that's why I wrote the book.
Lily Jones
Yeah, definitely. And I think it is so such a societal belief for many of us who've heard like the fastest path to success as a college degree, and it doesn't have to be the only path, right? So what would you say to those people who have that mindset?
Kathleen deLaski
I get asked that a lot, particularly when people hear that I work for with a nonprofit that is trying to come up with other, other paths, or shorter paths, usually is, you know, one of the design criteria, I say that there are still people. There are certain, you know, types of people for whom a college degree is pretty essential. And then there are others who can at this point where we are, you know, we're in a we're in a very shifting period, a period of great change, and we're kind of in the middle of it. And right now, you know, there aren't great other options. And so you're telling people who might be, you know, approaching that decision point, let's say high schoolers or career switchers. And you know, and the some of the anecdotes of where, you know, people are doing well without the degree they're not, you know, the the future is not evenly distributed, right? So they're not necessarily available, you know, at a, at a, you know, in a region near you. And so it's very much the case that, you know, it's a, the answer to the question is, it depends, and it really depends on your financial situation. Obviously, that's that probably the biggest thing, whether you have your site set on a career that is, you know, where a degree is long going to be required, like doctor, lawyer, accountant, nurse, teacher, although, although, you know, I do profile some of the workarounds for Teacher apprenticeships that are starting to be brought to bear to address the teacher shortage, so we can talk about that. And then, you know, so there are many careers where the degree is going to be a hard and fast rule for one or two decades to come, and it's only severe shortages of workers that will undo that. But then there are other fields where there's no reason why you couldn't, you know, you couldn't take either shortcuts or, you know, do you know sort of boot camps, apprenticeships, YouTube, you know, videos to get you to industry certifications. There are workarounds that do work. And then, and then the so there. So I describe four categories of people who do need a college degree, in my view, from from the, you know, design work that I've done with learners and our organization has done with learners, and then four who don't. And you know, I won't take you through all of them, but basically it looks at, we look at whether you know, whether the profession requires a degree, or whether your personal circumstances are such that you are, let's say, born into an immigrant family that's come to this country. Right, and needs that, that, that class transport, magic carpet, right, to get you from you know, your status, your financial status, or not knowing, you know, not being able to, knowing how to network, or not knowing anything about the careers that might be available. Those folks really do need college. I mean, it's been, you know, the stories and the data show that it can be a game changer for, you know, somebody who's, for instance, new to the country, or in a, you know, lower income family, that where they where they can, you know, make a huge difference by using college as kind of the all round, you know, mechanism or ticket, you know, to the American dream, and that's still the case. Another category is what I call legitimacy label, where you feel that, you know, you may not have the financial or, sorry, the class constraints, but you feel like you're not taken seriously. And I think a lot of women are, you know, maybe in this category, or people who feel like they need, you know, they need that piece of paper for themselves to feel good about, about whether they can do it or get to the place they want to go professionally. So those are some of the categories that do need college. And then the ones who don't, it's really people who are self motivated, maybe career switching, people who have family contacts that people who know how to kind of figure out, you know, can, can look around them and see, okay, look, I can go over here and do this apprenticeship, and then I can get this industry certification. And I interview some of those people in the book. You meet some of them. And my daughter is in the category that is in the first category of career switcher, where she's used a boot camp to parlay herself into a new profession instead of a degree.
Lily Jones
Wonderful. Yeah. I think it's so interesting hearing about those different categories too, and thinking about a lot of the teachers that I work with, they often think they need a new degree, right? Like, it's like, oh, I need to get a degree. I need to get my masters, I need to get my PhD, whatever it might be. And just like you're saying, like, I love school, right? Like I love going back, I love learning, I love all the things, but often I see it like with that legitimacy lens, where it can be almost like a procrastination or, like, almost not the most direct way of learning the skills that you need to learn, or just kind of diving in there. So I appreciate just the lens of, like, thinking about those different categories and thinking about how those might show up in our own lives too.
Kathleen deLaski
Yeah, and teaching is one where there are licensing requirements. And, you know, in some in some school districts, right? You actually get paid more if you get the Masters, not that much more. But, you know, there is a so so that, you know that hasn't, that part hasn't changed. But in teaching, specifically, there are programs I profile reach University, which is using the apprenticeship degree model to help, like other people who are in the building, working in the like in the building, you know, get to their their degree. So they're still getting a degree, but they're doing it in an apprenticeship model that is often paid for by the district.
Lily Jones
Yeah, there's a lot of models like that. I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area, and there's a lot of models kind of emerging around here too, of taking that teacher apprenticeship and thinking about different ways of reworking it. And I think it's really interesting. And I think especially, like you're saying, for people who may already be working at a school but aren't certified teachers, like giving them pathways to really make a difference in their community and also work while they get their degree, right? So tell us about your daughter. I know you mentioned her in the interview, but also in the book, can you tell us a little bit about what was her career change?
Kathleen deLaski
Yeah. So she was somebody who wanted to enter a field that you have to decide very young, and you kind of go into an apprenticeship. She is a professional ballerina, and as is her husband, actually, and they and, but she was really, you know, with ballet, what you don't know, like, if you're not a superstar, which, you know, there, you know, maybe a handful in each country, and you're just good, and you don't know whether you're going to make it, you know, you try to hedge your bets, and your parents make you hedge your bets. And, you know, so we had her going down the track to go to college, and she was doing the, you know, did all the, did all the tests and the applications, and she got into college. But then was having, you know, really good luck, like getting picked up in the, you know, in the apprenticeship market for ballet companies, and so, you know, kind of walked away from it. And it was really hard for her, because every single person in her high school, except her class, in her class went went to college, and she felt, you know, very alone in her, in her journey, you know, until she, you know, maybe got to like 25 Five, and was having, you know, great success as a ballerina. And then, you know, then she says, in the book, you know, you're, you're led to believe that this is a Lego, a Lego block that you need, you know, to get to the next Lego block. And she said, and that's not true at all, I found. And so then, when she her whole ballet company was laid off in 2020, from COVID, and suddenly, you know, she and her husband had no no work. They she did a Marketing Boot Camp online. And in one boot camp, we helped her pay for it. So saying, you know, you need to have some resources. You she was able to parlay that into work as a digital marketer. In fact, her instructor from the boot camp hired her to work for his company because a lot of the boot camps use, you know, industry practitioners to teach the courses. And so she's still, she's still a ballerina now, but she's doing marketing on the side, and she'll be able to part, you know, she's got the job experience now to, you know, work into that new field. But you know, doing that as a career switcher does require, you know, as I say in the book, you need to be connected. You need to have, you need to know what the what Boot Camps are good. You need to have access to the money. You need to be learn how to network. You know, those things only work, or that that work around the college only works if you have a few other you know, things available to your attributes.
Lily Jones
Yeah, I think about those attributes too. We have a certification program at educator forever, helping teachers become curriculum developers, so kind of a similar, like, five week program, right? And we bring in industry people, and we talk about different methods, and it's really kind of focused on, like, on the ground skills. And so I think about people who are successful in that program are also have a sense of, like, really doing the work, right? Like at college or in higher education, like, there are sometimes some checks and balances of, like, oh, I have to do this assignment, and then I get this grade, and then, you know, like, we're kind of scaffolded there, and then doing kind of a boot camp or certification program. Sometimes you just have to kind of go for it and be a little more self motivated there. So I think that's an interesting way of looking at the skills, too.
Kathleen deLaski
Yeah and I think many of the teachers in your audience probably are, you know, also thinking about this idea of on of online learning, and the expectation that you can, you know, can you build a set of skills, you know, in a self paced, you know, asynchronous kind of learning experience. And, you know, I think the answer is, as research shows us, right really depends on the kind of person you are, right and and the context in which you're, you know, learning learning the skills or the material.
Lily Jones
Sure. And so going back to higher ed, I would love to hear a little bit about how you envision the future of higher ed evolving to better serve a diverse range of learners and align with market needs.
Kathleen deLaski
Yeah, I think that's it's a it's a great question. The last chapter of the book is called "The Great College Reset," which looks at both the kind of the the design principles that that learners, particularly learners who haven't been served, kind of point to and lead us to as they they are. I use the term extreme users. That's a design term to kind of you look at what are extreme users doing, and those show you the people who are on, you know, the edges, either, you know, under the system, under serves or over serves them. And what, what can we learn from them, right? And what, what we learn about the future is that number one, college needs to be a step ladder approach, where you can come in and out of smaller chunks of learning. And, you know, once you build some earnings power with a first kind of either certification or preparation for a job role, like an early job role, you you need to be able to either work on the side while you get the next qualification, to move up the ladder, or be able to come in and out. And so the modalities of learning have to work for people who do have to work, because 60 to 70% of college students work, you know, at least part time. And that's just a reality that that that college is not designed for. And so the step under approaches is sort of the framing principle that I described, and you see it happening. I'm actually writing a blog this weekend on on what's called the micro pathway movement in at community colleges, where something like 100 colleges are now offering these the work. With employers in their regions to design these first rungs on the ladder. And you know, they're in behavioral health, they're in it, they're in advanced manufacturing to, you know, there's one I was learning about today that is helping people be able to get that first job at the semiconductor plants that are popping up around the country, right? And so you get that first job, and then you can work to get to build your skill, you know, sort of on the side, while you while you're able to earn a living. And so I think, I think college will look like more, more like that for probably 50% of the market, and then you're all you'll always have, you know, your 30% of the market, that is whose parents are funding the coming of age experience, and off they go in the family SUV. Or maybe not, maybe, though they're working at home. I mean that, that model, I mean people don't have to worry that's not going away, but it's we just have to recognize that it's becoming accessible and desirable to fewer and fewer people, based on both ROI outcomes as well as obviously, the rising costs. There was a study, I should tell you, that came out like yesterday from a business school that's getting a lot of attention, that says that eight out of 10 recent college grads say that they learn more in their first six months on the job than they did in all four years of college. Eight out of 10, that's that's a big number, and that the employers who were interviewed said that they try to avoid something like nine out of 10 of them said they try to avoid hiring recent college grads because they just aren't useful enough. You know, they haven't learned any they haven't learned they'd rather hire people with experience. So those are a few of the of the kind of, you know, the factors that are, you know, making, I think a lot of people, you know, that's that gets stirred around as as the zeitgeist, right? And then people are like, they hear it that, you know, college is losing its rep as a, as it as an, as the key ticket, you know, to getting a good job. And so, you know, it's a lot of colleges doing great things, but they're, you know, they're not getting credit for it, because the the reputation is, is under, under some attack.
Lily Jones
Interesting? Yeah, I mean, I think so many parts of that are interesting to me, of thinking about how it makes me think just about learning experiences and, like, the common thing that kids say, right, college students, elementary school students is like, how would I use this in my life? Thinking about, yeah, making it more relevant, and giving those apprenticeship models or opportunities to see the connections to the careers you might have in a not abstract way, you know, in an actual trying it out way. And then it also just makes me think about, as you were talking about the micro credentials and all these accessibility points for people that like learning happens all over the place, right? So giving more access points to learning and different ways of learning and different places to learn, seems like it's all good to be, you know, just broadening the field a little bit there, and also that it's like, if you're trying a micro credential, or you're trying something out, like, I'm not going to school for four years to become a plumber or something, right? I'm not sure if I want to become a plumber. Let me try and make this first course and see if I like it, right? Kind of dip my feet in. Who's your tool? Yeah. Mm hmm. So tell me about with K 12 teachers. A lot of our audience, our K 12 teachers. How do you think your research affects them?
Kathleen deLaski
Yeah, well, I think the I have a chapter in the book called "Is college for all dead?," where I go to the front lines of high schools and interview guidance counselors and and also students, and really talk to them about how is it changing? And I chose some of the charter schools to go to, which I know not everybody is a fan of charter schools, but they're very forthcoming with their data, and they get a lot of data, so they were willing to share with me this I went to Denver is one place where I focused. I was at the top performing charter school in the Denver area, and in terms of, you know, people going and going on to college, and even there, they're seeing their numbers of people who students who want to go to college drop, and so they're trying to figure out they've brought in in this group called Willow education that is helping the got the counselors really share more options with the students, not just college or trade school, but what else is there. And how might we help you? How might we destigmatize. Uh, for those who are not thinking or thinking that maybe they don't want to go to college, or maybe they just don't want to go yet, they want to experience the world. So I feel like, and I've talked to high schools around, you know, around the country, there's a lot more interest among high schools, at least, of thinking about, you know, multiple pathways and also exposing more more students to, you know, thinking about CTE career and technical education differently, right to expose like New York City is doing, exposing kids to, you know, job apprenticeships from ninth grade, and giving them way more the feeling that, okay, it's not like are you going to be an auto mechanic or you're going to college? But let's take some of the courses where you learn about the electronics that might be in cars or might be in EV batteries might be it might be anywhere, and give them exposure so that it almost blurs the lines between the trades and the professions, right?
Lily Jones
I love that too. Like, it doesn't have to be totally separate, right? Have to be the trades and the professions, or it doesn't have to be a certification versus college, you know.
Kathleen deLaski
Right! Because work is is headed that way, right? My eldest went to interview with BMW and they're, you know, they're looking for smart apprentice, apprenticeship joiners who are who you know they can get before college, because they want, you know they're, they're competing with colleges for students.
Lily Jones
So interesting. Kathleen, well, thank you so much for sharing with us. Can you tell people how they can connect with you?
Kathleen deLaski
Yeah, so I so we've created a book website that is trying to make it as easy as possible. It's just the same title as it's the book title. Who needs college anymore.org? And that's that's probably the best place to either, either order the book or I'm going to be putting in the next week or soon, discussion guides. And there's a set for high school, for schools, K 12 schools. There's a set for families and so that might, you know, might spark if you want to have a conversation at your in your own school or in your own district. And I'm available. I'm on that that on that website, you can find me on LinkedIn and sub stack. I also have a sub stack column called "Who Needs College Anymore?"
Lily Jones
Wonderful. Thank you so much. Thank.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai