Episode 98: Working in Higher Education with Dr. Maggie Broderick

Dr. Maggie Broderick is an associate professor at National University, where she serves as a dissertation chair and as a faculty lead for Social Emotional Learning and Curriculum and Instruction. She is also the director of NU’s Advanced Research Center and the editor of the International Journal of Online Graduate Education.

In this interview, Maggie and I talk about online education, going from teaching in K-12 to college, and how curriculum development is different for higher education.

 
 
 
 
 

Read the transcript for this episode:

Welcome to Educator Forever, where we empower teachers to innovate education. Join us each week to hear stories of teachers expanding their impacts beyond the classroom and explore ways to reimagine teaching and learning.

Dr Maggie Broderick is an associate professor at National University where she serves as a dissertation chair and as a faculty lead for social emotional learning and curriculum instruction. She's also the Director of National University's Advanced Research Center and the editor of the International Journal of Online Graduate Education. Dr Broderick is an active scholar who is passionate about teaching and learning at all levels. Welcome Maggie, so nice to have you here.


Dr. Maggie Broderick  

Thanks so much, Lily. It's great to be here today.


Lily Jones  

Well, I would love to have you walk us through your journey as an educator.


Dr. Maggie Broderick  

Well, you know, I'm in excellent company among teachers. They are the most wonderful people. But thanks. This is a great thing to kind of think back on that for myself. I've been around for a while now, and it just makes me smile when I think about that winding path over the years and how I ended up where I am teaching has always been at the heart of it. So I am also a parent of three kiddos. Two are adults. They're 18 and 22 and I have a 13 year old at home here, and I sometimes think about, like, Where will they be in 30 years? You know? Like, where was I at their age and and how will they be? It kind of gives you perspective. And for me personally, when I was around their age, or maybe around the 13 year old's age, I would kind of dive into things and just get excited and learn them really well. So like, for example, playing the flute. Loved it. Just completely went down that rabbit hole. Things like knitting and crocheting, they make me very happy. And what happened was sometimes with people, you know, they would ask me, Hey, how did you do that? How did you, you know, play the flute like that? How did you knit like that? And I was kind of a very quiet kiddo, and so I would light up and go, Oh, wow. They're actually kind of interested in learning this too. And so that heart of a teacher, I felt like, was born around that time, right? Like, oh, wow, you want to learn this too. Let me show you. And then when they were doing it, like, let's say I learned how to crochet. And I said, Oh, you know, here you can learn too. And then I would see them do it, I think that's the heart of a teacher. So for me like that, that was happening a lot at their ages, and I see that, you know, when I think about it. And so I chose music education with that in mind. And my dad said, Hey, that's a good career track. You know, being a teacher is a solid plan. But I also had that heart at the same time. It was sort of both the heart of me and the mind, because I just really delight in, kind of learning something new and diving into it full speed. And then it's even more wonderful when you can share that. So I just think of that as sort of that heart that you get as a teacher.


Lily Jones  

That's lovely. I love thinking about the heart of a teacher, and kind of how that gets developed over time. I see that I have a 12 year old and a nine year old, and my 12 year old, I think, has the heart of a teacher. Yeah. Teacher, no. And it's interesting, like about the same time that you're saying that developed for you, you know, just this awareness of what other people are interested in and how she might be able to help them along. And I think just like a sense of curiosity along with that too.


Dr. Maggie Broderick  

Exactly, exactly. Oh, I love that. You have that. And sometimes it does run in families, doesn't it?


Lily Jones  

 Yeah, absolutely. My parents were teachers at various points in their careers too, so can't get around it. So I know that you started as a music educator, and then what happened after that?


Dr. Maggie Broderick  

 Well, so I finished my bachelor's degree in music ed. I'm from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and was going to local university, Duquesne University, here for music ed. I was super young. I started young in school and finished early, so I was 20. And I don't think people it's hard enough to go into teaching when you are of the right age, whenever that might be. But I was so young, should you be? So I was like, Okay, I can't possibly get So luckily, I was actually working at like a student aid, you know, like one of those jobs on campus, right? And it happened to be, luckily, in the School of Education, which was not the School of Music. And so when I was there, I was finding myself, it was like 1993 94 pretty good with computers. And so the various professors there, who were really esteemed, they would, you know, send along, "Hey, will you type this for me? Hey, will you, you know, do my syllabus? Will you help me with my resume, my CV, right?" And luckily, what happened was, I was able to morph that into a job continuing there as a graduate assistant for my master's. And so in like, 9495 I found myself typing up all these things for professors, and I was like, wow, look at this. You know, I'm like, this young, 21 year old. Like, well, I want to be like them when I grow up. So I saw, you know, so and so Edd, what's an EDD, so and so PhD? What's the difference? Oh, look, they've presented it 30 years worth of conferences. I want to be like that when I grew up, right? And I was like, That's darn impressive. So I just kind of like a sponge, got into that and was really excited by their career path and sort of the idea of emulating that. So yeah, I did immediately, as soon as I. Started teaching in 95 finally, whatever the age is, I started teaching, and I immediately enrolled in a PhD program and did it simultaneously, so it was that in mind. So then with that, I went to Pitt University of Pittsburgh, and like in the late 90s and early 2000s I was teaching on ground a little bit in higher ed at the same time as teaching music, and then in k5 and then, you know, eventually, online teaching took off, and I had two young children. By then, I was like, okay, staying home with them, and I'm raising them. I could teach online. So 2008 2009 moved into higher ed online, and I've been there ever since.


Lily Jones  

Yes, fantastic. I also moved working online when my kids were little, you know, I was classroom teacher, and then also wanted to stay in education and keep doing a lot of what I was doing, but needed the flexibility to be there for them. So I love that, that pivot there and then. Can you tell us about what you're doing now?


Dr. Maggie Broderick  

Well, nowadays I've got, you know, a lot of doctoral students working with them on their dissertations. Most of the time. I have several hats at my university, so I like to do like I said, dive into different things. So most of my time is spent with those doctoral students who are getting that PhD or EDD. And that is so awesome, too, because I'm thinking of that, you know, 21 year old I was looking at, okay, I want to be like them. Now I'm working with people who want to be like them too. I'm like, That's awesome. They might be a school principal, or they might be working in industry and sort of organizational leadership, or they might be, you know, ESL educator. So I'm usually a dissertation chair. But in addition to that, I run the Advanced Research Center, which is called Arc. And I help people with their publications and presentations if they want to do scholarly work. And I also do some work in curriculum, with the curriculum teaching specialization and our social emotional learning specialization, which is really important stuff these days.


Lily Jones  

Yes, I love that all of that sounds completely fascinating, and I love that it's many different things too, that you get to have your hand in and supporting educators at various points in their careers. And I know that you've worked with a lot of educators and with some teacher education programs. And I'm wondering what you think the most important things, and I know this is a hard question to narrow it down, but that you think teacher education programs should be focusing on?


Dr. Maggie Broderick  

Oh, yeah, it's, it's a moving target. And what's that saying? The only constant is change, right? Like everything else, you know you could it's amazing to me. I guess, what do they call it wisdom? I guess once you get a few, a few decades under your belt, like, okay, yeah, I could see that this keeps changing. And so we can see that educators, you know, they have to be on their toes. And teacher educators, too. I've seen these technology changes, like when I was doing that stuff back in that office, I had these, you know, disks, and I put them in the computer or the hard drive, and, yeah, you see all of this, right? Gosh, there are huge trends and differences - that pendulum swing - for what it what we do in Curriculum, Instruction changes in family structures, communities. There's, like, social and political issues, depending on what state you teach in these days. I mean, you name it. So I was just in this meeting, actually, this morning, and we were like, oh, we'll look over these courses that were written four or five years ago. And it was like four of us saying, oh, we'll just see what we need to tweak as we think about revising. We were flabbergasted. We're like, oh my gosh, the pandemic happened in there. We've got people with different technological things happening, children using a lot of technology. We were like, Whoa, there are changes in the law. There are changes in, you know, what, if a teacher is teaching in Florida versus, I don't know, Massachusetts, what would their perspective be on what this course, says lot of stuff, um, so really, I just advise teachers and teacher educators, you just have to keep that in mind and reflect on the fact that that change is going to be constant, and it can be quite jarring, and just realize that that that is what it is. So with that in mind, Carol Dweck brings up the idea of the growth mindset, right? A lot of us love that concept, and I think that's that's really what we have to do. I have a wonderful colleague and former student, Dr Gary Walker Roberts, he was my they were sorry. They were my students years ago, and they are now my colleague. And they brought up this wonderful idea called the Growth Heart Set. They have this, this thought that instead of just a growth mindset, we also have to have a growth heart set. And their idea is that you have to, you know, think about the world, not just with an open mind, but think about your diverse learners with an open heart. Specifically, they think a lot about LGBTQIA plus issues, but it's for everything you know, open mind, open heart. I really think they're right on that


Lily Jones  

I love that I absolutely agree. I mean, I think that's the part that sometimes gets left out or not prioritized in teaching. I think teachers. Go into teaching often with an open heart, but then there are so many other things that like pile up and that's often pushed to the side. And I always thought that the most important thing was really loving my students, yes, and really seeing them for who they were. And so I think that if you have that as like your compass, you know that can help with those ups and downs, making it be okay, because you're like, all right, it's about the connection that I have with these humans and this, like, honor of being there at this point of their development.


Dr. Maggie Broderick  

100% you got it, Lily, that's That's it. It's just taking that all of the noise and just realizing that that's what we have to have at our core to get through. Because it's not easy, for sure.


Lily Jones  

 Yeah, absolutely. And along with that, you know, there's been a lot of talk of well being, both in social and emotional learning for students, but also, I think, for teachers, as being a needed focus. So I'm wondering your thoughts on well being in schools.


Dr. Maggie Broderick  

Oh, yeah, yeah. Like I said, that specialization I took over this social emotional specialization. It's only one of many at National University where I work. And so we have a whole other department that has a whole other focus on social emotional learning. And then within my department, we have this other part where I am part, I involve involved with the SEL, and there's a doctoral program as well. And you know, it's just gone crazy since the pandemic. Like it was always something that we looked at and had in our curriculum. But now the enrollments are way, way, way, way up. And I can see why. It's that idea that my doctor, Gary, that they brought up, that growth heart set, that that they coined because, you know, today's learners, they're very diverse. We've got racial and ethnic diversity. We've got gender, sexuality, diversity, so many perspectives, and they're smart. These kids, you know, if you talk to them, like my 13 year old and her friends, I'm like, Oh my gosh, kids are smart. So we really, really have to think about what are their social emotional needs. And just like you said, human beings, human first, right? So, yeah, you know, traditionally, we focus so much on academics or assessment and all that, it's important, of course, of course we need, I was just talking about explicit phonics instruction and that it's important like it is. Yeah, it is. But at the same time, you know, we have to have that core so at NU national, we do focus on what we call whole human education. And you can see that either as a kid in PK through 12, struggling with something you know, or with an adult learner in our online graduate programs, a doctoral learner, we need to dive in and just make sure we respond to their needs. And that culture has to have it in a proactive way so we can be both proactive and responsive and just understand that's that's the human thing. Just like you said, communicate relationships, rapport, build all of that. It's a lot. Some of our courses are short, so it's hard to do like in a short time frame to build that relationship and rapport. But when you do, you know, you really find that there's that connection. I've done some research with colleagues on SEL and I recommend, you know, the CA SEL website. I know you know what, I'm sure. CA SEL, you know, for your listeners who may or may not know, and also, at national, we partner with Harmony Academy, and they have wonderful resources. So there's so much out there. If you just want to start small and kind of bring in more of that heart, I'd say that that's the way to go, for sure, when we think about whether it's younger people or, you know, over somebody who's an adult learner.


Lily Jones  

Yes, lovely, absolutely. And I think, yeah, being responsive and leading with that heart can make such a difference in well being. And I think there's also an element of just joy, like bringing joy into learning can really help everybody's well being, and have that guide the way. 


Dr. Maggie Broderick  

Yeah, engagement and joy, absolutely, absolutely.


Lily Jones  

So thinking about curriculum, I am a curriculum developer, and we have a curriculum agency-side of Educator Forever. I teach a curriculum program, I feel like I'm in curriculum all day, every day, but mostly pre K to 12. And so I'm particularly curious about creating curriculum for higher ed and kind of anything that's come up for you around that, anything you'd like to share, and how it's different from pre K to 12 curriculum.


Dr. Maggie Broderick  

Nice, nice. I love that. We share that hat. I love it too. I was a curriculum director for a while, and, yeah, something about, um, building it right? It's like, oh, I think I said recently to a student that resonated with them: "You're engineering something, right?" You're engineering a strong like Foundation, and then you can have the instructional component and assessment, because it all works together. It has to be strong in the curriculum, or you're floundering. You can do some good things, but if you don't have it...


Lily Jones  

yeah, I don't even know where, yeah, be very disorienting.


Dr. Maggie Broderick  

Where do you go? So basically, that research based practice is generally the same, right? We have outcomes and objectives, and we map to them, and they need to be properly aligned. And all those foundational building blocks, right? They have to make sense. And, you know, we speak that same language. You and I would speak that same language about curriculum, for sure. I always tell. My students, whether they're working in higher ed or PK through 12, you're unpacking something like standards, right? And you need to think, I think about a suitcase. You're unpacking the standards, and then those learning activities occur within the lesson. Maybe that's like your packing cubes, and then the packing cubes, it goes further. Maybe there's, you know, a unit, and then that suitcase is the curriculum, and it all has to align and make sense within that suitcase, so that you're packed for your stuff and unpack. But the main difference, like you were asking, it's a great question, is adult learners and younger learners, they have different motivations and needs and expectations, right? So we actually force most of our PK through 12 learners to be there, right? They have to go. It's just what we do. And, you know, adult learners choose it. They might be like a 45 year old person who's super busy. We say at national we call them Anders. They're and so they might be a full time employee at their career. Maybe they're a parent and a caregiver, or both. It might be sandwich generation, right? And they're busy, they've got personalized professional lives, and and and, and maybe they're military and and, and they're a spouse and all this, and they are a student. Maybe they're a volunteer and they are a student, right? Online education is super convenient for them, and we're all online, um, almost exclusively at nu. But it can kind of be isolating. It can be kind of rough. You have to be super self directed. So we think about Malcolm Knowles theory: Andragogy. It's different than pedagogy, right? So the motivations of those learners, you have to meet them where they are, same as with younger students, but just understand that, why are you here? Why did you choose to do this and this and this and this, right? And so we have to frame any of those research based curriculum decisions and that unpacking and that suitcase just with that at the core. Okay, why did they choose to do this? What do they need? Do they need to advance in their career? Are they looking for, you know, a new title and a new salary, or are they looking for something in their heart? Are they looking for, you know, a total life change. Why are they here? The curriculum with andragogy at that core, and then from there, you do have to use the same outcomes and mapping and Bloom's verbs,


Lily Jones  

Yes, yes. Awesome. That's great. That seems so fascinating and interesting to think about the overlap of how many things are the same. But of course, it's like both motivations and just developmentally, where adults are versus where kids are changes the course along the way, exactly, exactly. So I'm really interested in the overlap between career development and personal development, and I'm wondering what you've learned about yourself throughout your career? 


Dr. Maggie Broderick  

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's the same thing, kind of circling back to the beginning there, when we were talking about, I was looking at my own kiddos and going, hmm, where will you be in 30 years? And I'll be, you know, age of my mom, and you'll be the age I am now, and all of this. And wow, what will that kind of look like? And I think teachers, throughout my whole career, we've been taught reflection, right? Hard to find time to reflect, but it's incredibly important. It's reflection is key. So I do try to take time to do that. I'll take a walk, have a beautiful little dog named Charlie, and we go for a little walk and reflect on, you know, gosh, you know what's what's going on, and it's that same compass, right? It's the same thing that I think you mentioned your 12 year old that heart of the teacher. I felt it in a certain way. Now I see it in my work with the doctoral students, when they're finishing up their dissertations and they're going to pursue those publications and presentations. And I work with have a new book that came out. It's a booklet, shorter book, a servant scholarship, weaving a lasting tapestry. And just the idea of like, you know, what do you do with your publications and presentations? Why? Why are you doing this? What are your motivations to publish and present? And I take kind of the servant leadership approach to that, like that, we're trying to do some some good in the world with those. Why would you want to spend all that time writing something if it's not for that, right? So, yeah, that's kind of where that Compass has led me. And reflecting on that, just in a different way. It's not me showing someone how to play the flute nowadays. It's me saying, hey, you know, why are you here? Sort of that andragogy principle, like, what are you going to do with this? And it can continue on. What do you see in 2030, years? So I work with our advanced research center and with that book. And there's another publication I did that went along with it, because it was too much for one so I wrote two for one special. So got a couple of things on there. Just, what do you do? Do you want to present and publish? Well, why? And that's sort of where that heart of a teacher is living for me in a lot of ways these days.


Lily Jones  

Wonderful. Thinking about, you know, you've had such an interesting journey from being a teacher to moving into higher ed to moving, you know, virtually Teaching in Higher Ed. And a lot of our listeners are educators who want to stay in education, but are looking for a change. And. So for those people who might be kind of on the cusp of pursuing something new, what advice would you give them about moving beyond the classroom?


Dr. Maggie Broderick  

Yeah, it's such a big topic right now. I mean, we talked about how hard it is, and it was hard for me, like when I started in 1995 I was teaching at inner city, and I didn't know a lot about the context. I boy, did. I had some hard lessons. I did. Gosh, and I know, I'm sure you had many, we've had anything, but you know, today, I think it's even harder. Gosh, right now we've got, like, the post covid, that raw social, emotional stuff, kids, parents and caregivers, everybody, juggling so much, this constant change, that political and social upheaval, all kinds of stuff to consider. And like I said, depends kind of where you live to, gosh, so many things where you could Yeah. So we have attrition, huge attrition rates and burnout and things like that. And I know I have a student who's writing a dissertation about it right now, about people who left the profession right after covid, and why? What were their motivations for leaving? Essentially, right? So with that in mind, I think, I think it's smart to think about it. And actually, if you, like you said, if you stay as an educator, or if you don't, it can reignite, right? It can reignite that heart, reunite your passion. So, yeah, what I would think about was, you know, think about outside the box. It's healthy to do that, just like what we want for our students. So you might pivot, or you might not, but from there, I found a lot of avenues just by searching online, just diving into those rabbit holes. One thing I've done is sort of attending and presenting at conferences just like, hey, you know, this one looks cool. It's in my neck of the woods this time, or it's online, or, Hey, I'd like to go to Disney World, and it's at Disney World. So...


Lily Jones  

Don't to tell my kids about that one...


Dr. Maggie Broderick  

There are a lot of conferences there Lily, it's a good place. But anyway, so yeah, there's a lot of things that way, and you can get reignited that way. And you'd be surprised at presenting at a conference like if you do it with someone else, honestly, probably can really, it's not as scary as you might think, right? There are ways of publishing, either more scholarly or, you know, maybe a blog or something else, all kinds of ways. And then, you know, podcasts, like you're doing today, social media. And then from there, sometimes we'll find ways of writing curricula, you know, from home and different spaces. Gosh. Duolingo is right down the street from my house, like, boy, cool to write stuff for them, wouldn't it? Right for there's all kinds of things you could do. So they're just other ways to teach. I guess I would say, you know, I, I was a Girl Scout leader for a long time and that's still teaching. But, you know, I think people can dip their toe in and say, Does this feel like that heart of a teacher, you know, is there, and does it engage and excite me as a human being? And maybe you stay as a teacher and just do that on the side, or some combination. Or maybe you move to that. I don't think your heart's gonna be gone. That heart of a teacher is gone. If I were writing for Duolingo, or if I were doing this, and who knows what, it's still there. It just beats in a different way. I'd say in some way? 


Lily Jones  

Yes, absolutely. And there are so many ways to do meaningful work and work that helps people. And so I think, whether in the classroom or beyond, you know, there are many ways to use your heart of a teacher, and I really do, I think a lot about like, I think that when we show teachers that you can do all these different things inside and outside of the classroom. Hopefully it just makes teaching a more appealing profession, you know, that you don't have to feel like, which I felt like, that I was going into the classroom and that I was going to stay there until I retired, yeah, which didn't end up happening, you know, for various reasons. And so I think just seeing the options hopefully can elevate the whole teaching profession. 


Dr. Maggie Broderick  

And we have options these days that I wouldn't have imagined in 1994 or 1995. I kind of would dream like, Wow. I wonder, like, what this internet will bring, right? Sure has brought a lot. So I'd say just Yeah, dip your foot in and see, gosh, there's probably a lot of things that different people with different parts of a teacher could could find that would ignite that passion. 


Lily Jones  

Yeah, yes. And we need the heart of a teacher in so many spaces. So I think you're really leading with that is such a great way to put it. So it's been wonderful talking with you. Maggie, thank you so much for sharing about your experiences. Where can people connect with you?


Dr. Maggie Broderick  

Oh, thanks, Lily. I love it when people reach out. So please don't hesitate. I am on LinkedIn. Just kind of Google, Google me up on there, and so I also have my email I can share. It's m Broderick at nu for National university.edu that would be just fine with me if people reached out. We do a lot of things, like I said, sort of connecting people who want to publish and present in particular. So that's always like, Oh yeah, reach out to me or just just to chat about things, or, you know, things at national or anything, anything above. So love to hear from folks Wonderful.


Lily Jones  

Thank you so much, and we'll put the links to all those down below in the show notes.


Dr. Maggie Broderick  

Thanks. It's great to chat with you today. Thank you again.


Lily Jones  

Yes, you too. 


Transcribed by https://otter.ai


Lily Jones